New loft roof overhanging party wall.

[lokiloft]

So we're half way through getting our loft built by one of the big loft companies.

We've just had the roof done in that fiberglass stuff and the neighbour has noticed the roof overhangs onto his half of the party wall.

Its best to see the photo attached, which the neighbour has provided from ground level illustrating his point. Note we're the white house on the right.
Basically we chose not to build up the party wall, instead placing the new timber wall on top of the existing brick party wall. The inside edge of the timber wall is in line with our edge of the existing party wall, and the outside edge of the timber isn't even at the halfway point of the party wall. However once the battens and tiles are on the outside of the wall, they will most likely be over the halfway point, but still nowhere near the neighbours edge of the party wall. The roof obviously has to overhang the tiles to complete the weather proofing, clearly putting the roof overhang over the halfway point of the party wall, but not actually completely to the neighbours edge.

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• lokiloft
• 4 Nov 2013
• 1

Its my understanding that while the tiles and roof overhang are indeed over the neighbours side, if/when he comes to do a loft conversion these are simply removed, his new dormer wall attached to mine to make one solid wall and the roofs sealed together, whether or not they're at the same height.

Basically he wants the overhanging roof cut back, I mentioned that I thought that would simply happen at the time of his own loft going in but he thinks that unlikely.

The builders doing the job, who apparently are one of the best teams for this rather large loft company say they haven't had a complaint like this in 20 years of doing the job.

I know nothing about it all but am stuck in the middle at the moment.
Question is, is this normal for the roof to overhang the party wall?
The actual structure of my dormer wall is on my side, the only thing using any of his space is going to be the tiles and part of the roof, which would be removed (or used as part of his roof) if/when he does a loft conversion anyway?
He's worried he'll have nowhere to build his wall and therefore nowhere to build his roof and doesn't want to be restricted into matching my roof height (which is as high as we could go and is still only inches above my head!)

Is neighbour worrying over nothing or has the builder done something crazy here?
Advice would be helpful!

 

[tony1851]

Did you go through the procedure of the Party Wall Act?

 

[lokiloft]

Did you go through the procedure of the Party Wall Act?

Yes we have a party wall agreement with them unfortunately it doesn't mention any overhanging roof as neither of us were aware this would be the case, although thinking about it now it should be obvious ... if the wall is built to the half way line, the roof needs to overhang the wall slightly, so clearly the roof overhangs the halfway line too.

Would that not be normal?
If we ensured the roof overhang only comes to the halfway line, that means the wall has to be back further (reducing the floor space in the new room) and that would mean there'd be a gap between it and any new future opposing wall in his future dormer no? (ie if my roof overhang can only come to halway, so must his, pushing his wall back as well).

 

[geraldthehamster]

If the boundary is at the centre of the party wall, then you have built over the boundary, and if the neighbour hasn't consented, you can't do that - it's a trespass. In my inexpert opinion, the neighbour is right.

Cheers
Richard

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

You are not legally allowed to overhang the boundary, the centre of the wall. When he comes to do his loft you may have moved house or just changed your mind and why should he pay for the cost of adjusting your roof when that time comes, which it may not anyway? And then if you were to move and he joined on to this he may well end up being responsible for the waterproofing of that which will inevitably come back to him if there is a problem. It may also be a problem if he sells and the new owners are unhappy with the overhang either. Your loft conversion boys are Muppets.

You can have a gap and sometimes there is a gap in situations like this, even if its only 10mm. at least then it eliminates any of these issues. Your floor space is by the by.

 

[tony1851]

Your loft conversion boys are Muppets.

As are your party wall surveyors - they should have twigged this from the plans. What have you paid them £££ for? - a useless bit of paper which has not prevented a dispute.

 

[lokiloft]

You can have a gap and sometimes there is a gap in situations like this, even if its only 10mm. at least then it eliminates any of these issues. Your floor space is by the by.

For starters, that just seems ridiculous, a gap between two facing walls? Apart from just being a place for rotting leaves and dead cats there'd be no way to clad the second wall??

The reduction in room size by setting the dormer wall inside the party wall isn't the main issue, its that the starcases are on that same party wall, there'd be a stud wall thick projection into the stairwell rising into the dormer. The neighbours house is a reflection of mine so he would have the exact same issue when doing his loft and building his wall inside his party wall side.

Or is it a case of first loft up gets less room because they must build inside the party wall while second dormer gets full size cos they can build structural wall on top of party wall and join over onto the first dormers wall??

Considering the amount of lofts going up surely this issue has come up before and there's a very common resolution to the problem of "while the new structural wall is up to the half way point, all waterproofing / cladding / roof overhang is over the halfway point until the second dormer is built."
Taking two steps up our street I can see other dormers that don't have such a thick party wall between them and the dormer tiles come down completely onto the neighbours roof, and of course the dormer roof extends beyond the tiles putting it WELL over the neighbours actual roof, let alone any party wall. I know for a fact that was done only a year or so ago by pretty much the biggest loft company in London!

A bit more googling leads to several articles and even posts on this forum referring to the curtilage of a property including the entire party wall ...
//www.diynot.com/forums/building-regs-planning/party-walls-permitted-development.365686/
http://www.morrlaw.com/news/father-and-son-team-secure-a-change-in-planning-policy
In particular;

Following reconsideration of the definition of “Curtilage” the Council accepted that it could include the whole width of a party wall.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

You can have a gap and sometimes there is a gap in situations like this, even if its only 10mm. at least then it eliminates any of these issues. Your floor space is by the by.

For starters, that just seems ridiculous, a gap between two facing walls? Apart from just being a place for rotting leaves and dead cats there'd be no way to clad the second wall??

It may do but that’s the law. A 10mm gap can be filled with a sealant (subject to neighbour permission) and the new wall can be finished in a material that does not need cladding eg masonry.

Or is it a case of first loft up gets less room

Correct

Considering the amount of lofts going up surely this issue has come up before and there's a very common resolution to the problem of "while the new structural wall is up to the half way point, all waterproofing / cladding / roof overhang is over the halfway point until the second dormer is built."
Taking two steps up our street I can see other dormers that don't have such a thick party wall between them and the dormer tiles come down completely onto the neighbours roof, and of course the dormer roof extends beyond the tiles putting it WELL over the neighbours actual roof, let alone any party wall. I know for a fact that was done only a year or so ago by pretty much the biggest loft company in London!

And all of the potential problems that have been highlighted in this thread apply to those too unless the owners of the converted loft have the necessary written permissions from their neighbours. Loft conversion companies are notorious for cutting corners. The forum is testament to that, the fact that you’ve actually had a Party Wall Survey agreed and you still have these issues is extraordinary. That’s the whole crux of your originaly post is it not?

A bit more googling leads to several articles and even posts on this forum referring to the curtilage of a property including the entire party wall ...
//www.diynot.com/forums/building-regs-planning/party-walls-permitted-development.365686/
http://www.morrlaw.com/news/father-and-son-team-secure-a-change-in-planning-policy
In particular;

Following reconsideration of the definition of “Curtilage” the Council accepted that it could include the whole width of a party wall.

The diynot thread merely states that everything should be agreed in writing which is fine. But you don’t seem have this agreed in writing, that you can oversail the centre of the wall and that it will be acceptable for your neighbour to attach to your wall.

The morrlaw summary also states that that decision did not constitute a precedent and that each case would be looked at.

When all’s said and done, get your agreement between you and your neighbour drawn up legally in writing and then rest easy.

 

[lokiloft]

Or is it a case of first loft up gets less room

Correct

Good grief, I was kidding.
Surely people don't behave like that? Just leaves room for tit-for-tat situations like denying 2nd dormer the right to extend over the halfway point to join onto 1st dormer wall, leaving both parties worse off than if they'd just got along in the first place.

Even following something like the diagram in the following link, there's STILL going to be lead flashing over the whole party wall. There doesn't seem to any way around having non-permanent, non-structural, weather proofing extending over the halfway point (until of course the second dormer is built at which point it all gets cut off as is rightful, logical and required!)

http://www.peterbarry.co.uk/blog/2011/jan/22/party-wall-questions-1/

 

[lokiloft]

I think I'll probably point out to him the existing and quite similar situation with his ground floor extension and its roofline being higher than the original utility room bit on ours. There seems to be an overhang there. An overhang that doesn't effect us in the slightest and would just be cut off if we extended similarly or larger... obviously.

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• lokiloft
• 5 Nov 2013
• 1

 

[geraldthehamster]

I think I'll probably point out to him the existing and quite similar situation with his ground floor extension and its roofline being higher than original utility room bit on ours. There seems to be an overhang there. An overhang that doesn't effect us in the slightest and would just be cut off if we extended similarly or larger... obviously.

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• lokiloft
• 5 Nov 2013
• 1

Exactly the same would have applied to that overhang, had the person living in your house raised the issue. Perhaps they did, and it was agreed. If not, and it's been there for 20 years, it has a prescriptive easement, meaning it's acquired a right to be there. In any case, two wrongs don't make a parsnip, and the legal position is quite clear.

I hope you can come to an agreement with your neighbour.

Cheers
Richard