New system recommended

[Dylan123]

Accidentally drained my heating system. This caused an air lock which is now fixed and it’s working again.

the water escape was a putrid brown and I did wonder how healthy it looked.

I have:

baxi condensing boiler
Hot water tank in airing cupboard
Cold water and hot water tank in loft (open system apparently, has a stop cock thing)

I am currently fitting flooring hence the rads coming off.

plumber said:

the rads are prob 35 years old
The system is on its last legs
He wouldn’t attempt a power flush as the rads are so old and full of gunk it isn’t suitable.

essentially he recommended an entire new system.

Said that changing the rads MIGHT work but there may be other cr@p in the system. It may be in the pipes or the boiler itself.

so he said as a cheaper option he could: change the rads. Change to a closed system (not with the open tank in the loft - not sure what that means) and try to flush the pipes downstairs by putting something between the rad pipes.

the issue is, the boiler works. Have hot water back. The system isn’t that powerful…but we can survive on it.

I am about to lay the floor downstairs.
with the advice for a totally new install I’m wondering do I just bite the bullet and get a whole new system, pipes and all?

Or is this the kind of thing plumbers try to recommend. He seems a decent fellow but I know well from my own industry that this is a business.

But overawed by these costs. Any advice appreciated.

I don’t mind a new boiler or new rads - it’s the total re plumb of the pipes which I thought was unnecessary. Surely if you have new rads and a boiler you can just flush the pipes?

 

[muggles]

He's the one who's seen the system so it's hard to say, but if it's 35 years old with pipes buried in concrete floors it wouldn't be a bad idea to repipe while you have the chance. You could always get a second opinion if you're uncertain

 

[Dylan123]

He's the one who's seen the system so it's hard to say, but if it's 35 years old with pipes buried in concrete floors it wouldn't be a bad idea to repipe while you have the chance. You could always get a second opinion if you're uncertain

pipes are below wooden subfloor.
Will get 3 quotes.

I thought the cost would be £5k but on searching the internet it seems that might be a bit high.

Old system removed, new combi in differently location and 7 rads. Seems to be more like 4k tops. Not sure if that’s optimistic

 

[muggles]

Very very optimistic. Remember "cheapest" is very rarely "best". Yes, you can probably get it launched in by a monkey for that price, but in order to get the best efficiency out of the boiler the system needs to be correctly designed and set up. Condensing boilers don't condense out of the box, they need to be properly specified, installed, and commissioned by someone who understands how to get the best out of them. It might mean spending a bit more on the installation, but a good installation will cost less to run than something that's just thrown in with the aim of everything basically getting hot. It'll also reduce wear and tear on the boiler

 

[Dylan123]

Very very optimistic. Remember "cheapest" is very rarely "best". Yes, you can probably get it launched in by a monkey for that price, but in order to get the best efficiency out of the boiler the system needs to be correctly designed and set up. Condensing boilers don't condense out of the box, they need to be properly specified, installed, and commissioned by someone who understands how to get the best out of them. It might mean spending a bit more on the installation, but a good installation will cost less to run than something that's just thrown in with the aim of everything basically getting hot. It'll also reduce wear and tear on the boiler

the dude who just did the analysis on my current one said prob 2200 for parts and 1800 plus vat for labour so four and a half.

it’s a wonder anyone bothers buying a home because basic stuff like having hot water and heat costs stupid money. Trying to get my Windows done for under £12k (when I know for a fact its nowhere near that in terms of parts and labour) is a challenge.

I bought somewhere which was liveable with some potential but in retrospect, unless you’re a plumber/work in the trades and know people, I really should have bought a new build because the cost of basic stuff is astronomical. ESP with a young family.

With £1800 labour, say £350 a day for the plumber and £200 for the apprentice, say 3-4 days work….£350 a day is £88k a year. I don’t earn that, a lot of solicitors don’t earn that…dumbest thing I ever did was gave up training to work in a trade and went for a professional career as I would have been raking it in.

Damn it! Au revoir life savings, to pay for the resumption of an equitable temperature and hot water for sanitation.
Damn it all to hell, every job I look at and it’s always more than you think, always more complex, more expensive….
Gonna go have a lie down, one *^~€¥| plumbers visit and 5 years worth of savings wiped out and our holiday money gone, I could kick a dog if I had one!

EDIT: cooling down now, I get that it’s a skilled job and overhead cost but man, these things cripple you financially but at the end of the day, I bought the house. I didn’t check the plumbing. I don’t have the skills or the time to learn them. Its just a LOT of money.

 

[Dylan123]

[

 

[muggles]

With £1800 labour, say £350 a day for the plumber and £200 for the apprentice, say 3-4 days work….£350 a day is £88k a year. I don’t earn that, a lot of solicitors don’t earn that…dumbest thing I ever did was gave up training to work in a trade and went for a professional career as I would have been raking it in.

What is charged in labour is not what is earned. Running a plumbing & heating business is expensive, and of course you don't earn the same amount every day. I charge £400+vat a day but don't earn anything like £88k. My business overheads last year were £18k. That's £1500 a month I've got to earn just to keep the business running with no money in my pocket and nothing put aside for unexpected expenses.

I'd also be very surprised if someone could do a full repipe and fit a boiler to a high standard in 3-4 days.

 

[Dylan123]

What is charged in labour is not what is earned. Running a plumbing & heating business is expensive, and of course you don't earn the same amount every day. I charge £400+vat a day but don't earn anything like £88k. My business overheads last year were £18k. That's £1500 a month I've got to earn just to keep the business running with no money in my pocket and nothing put aside for unexpected expenses.

I'd also be very surprised if someone could do a full repipe and fit a boiler to a high standard in 3-4 days.

fair enough mate, I am sure you know the look that clients give you when you can’t sugar coat it - they need a new system and it’s going to cost big.

I get the same. I work in corporate and personal financial advice and when I explain to a client who is starting pension savings at 50 years old that they need to pay at least £1200 a month to retire at 60 I get the same look.

it is what it is. It’s just I think it’s easy to take heating and plumbing for granted. Paying the money does nothing for your quality of life, it’s just the cost of owning a property.

just having a wobbler over the cost, basically.

 

[dilalio]

Everyone needs a plumber.
Not everyone needs a data analyst /portfolio manager etc etc.

 

[muggles]

I'd argue that having a fully functioning and efficient heating & hot water system actually does quite a lot for your quality of life, but maybe I'm biased the trick is finding someone who can design and install you an efficient system at a price you're able to afford

 

[Dylan123]

Everyone needs a plumber.
Not everyone needs a data analyst /portfolio manager etc etc.

everyone needs a pension and financial planning!

sadly, many have the same attitude I do: don’t want to pay. Then they phone in to radio shows going “pensions are a rip off. I’ve made no money despite not reviewing or understanding the product I hold nor reviewing it since 1989!”

I’m actually more of a portfolio manager now, and indeed only the rich need that.
Just rest assured that despite not being rich myself, I spend most of my day trying to make those who are already much richer than me, even richer. Then if they make 0.5% less than the next guy, they want me fired!

Being in the middle sucks. You get it from both ends.

As to this thread I will try to pay for someone decent as installing a system isn’t a job for a novice.

 

[Dylan123]

I'd argue that having a fully functioning and efficient heating & hot water system actually does quite a lot for your quality of life, but maybe I'm biased the trick is finding someone who can design and install you an efficient system at a price you're able to afford

what I mean is, I know it isn’t but you kind of view it like breathing air or a basic human right.

however, it isn’t. It’s my first time owning a home. Welcome to the world of the grown ups, I guess.

Happening at a time when we have only one decent income and I have constant job insecurity…..hence the meltdown!

I guess at the end of the day the value is somewhat back into the house - but I understand new CH does very little for the price, just makes for a quicker sale

 

[Dylan123]

Ok so moving on, while I have the attention of people who know what they’re doing, any advice on this appreciated:

I am going to knock my dining room/kitchen through at the same time. The wall being removed has rads both sides. My assumption is knock through, then call the plumbers for a new install. Correct? no electrics on that wall, just 2 rads.

- I understand it’s worth paying for a good brand of boiler. Bosch or Worcester. Is this def the case? Will I pay twice for a cheap boiler?

- I have tanks and a back heat only (I think) boiler. Is combi really where it’s at? Do people expect this now, or could I have a system boiler and save a lot of money by not having to do a whole new system and water tanks etc.

- with all the energy efficiency going on, will we be forced to get electric soon anyway? Kind of stupid putting in gas if the gov want electric or that new heat ground thing. Any grants from the gov for this? Any inside track - will the gov just make me change it?

- How to distinguish good firms from bad? I don’t know anyone who knows anyone. Anything to look for. Will they offer guarantees etc? Bigger local firms. I don’t mind paying a BIT over the cheaper quotes for quality work. This whole thread has made me realise this isn’t a job for a cowboy

thanks guys

 

[oldbutnotdead]

If your pipework is under timber floors and 15mm/22mm then it is unlikely to be irredeemably knackered- while you have bare boards, lift a few (there will be evidence of the ones that were lifted to fit the pipe work originally) and have a look at the pipes and any joints, post some pics here if you want.
You can do a poor man's powerflush quite easily this time of year- isolate the boiler and pump from the radiators/cylinder, connect cold tap to the feed, hosepipe to drain to the return. Close all the rad valves except one, open the lockshield on that one wide open (count the turns, write it down), run the tap at full pressure til the drain water runs clear. Repeat for all other rads one at a time. If one or more rads show a reduced flow on the drain pipe that's an indication there is a restriction or blockage on that bit of tube (or in that radiator).
Other questions- there are a lot of threads on here about combi Vs system. Combis are ideal for small houses or flats where there's no space for airing cupboards or header tanks. Big advantage is infinite hot water, big disadvantage is limited flow rate (a gravity system with 4m head will deliver a far superior shower and fill the bath in half the time). Combis are fairly cheap at the moment because of bulk sales to new builds. Yes you can have a system boiler. NOTE if your existing flue goes up a chimney you'll not be able to connect a new boiler to it (or in that location). Check this before you commit to a boiler replacement.
Your knockthrough- decide where you want the rads after the knockthrough-, make sure you can get pipes to those positions.

 

[Dylan123]

If your pipework is under timber floors and 15mm/22mm then it is unlikely to be irredeemably knackered- while you have bare boards, lift a few (there will be evidence of the ones that were lifted to fit the pipe work originally) and have a look at the pipes and any joints, post some pics here if you want.
You can do a poor man's powerflush quite easily this time of year- isolate the boiler and pump from the radiators/cylinder, connect cold tap to the feed, hosepipe to drain to the return. Close all the rad valves except one, open the lockshield on that one wide open (count the turns, write it down), run the tap at full pressure til the drain water runs clear. Repeat for all other rads one at a time. If one or more rads show a reduced flow on the drain pipe that's an indication there is a restriction or blockage on that bit of tube (or in that radiator).
Other questions- there are a lot of threads on here about combi Vs system. Combis are ideal for small houses or flats where there's no space for airing cupboards or header tanks. Big advantage is infinite hot water, big disadvantage is limited flow rate (a gravity system with 4m head will deliver a far superior shower and fill the bath in half the time). Combis are fairly cheap at the moment because of bulk sales to new builds. Yes you can have a system boiler. NOTE if your existing flue goes up a chimney you'll not be able to connect a new boiler to it (or in that location). Check this before you commit to a boiler replacement.
Your knockthrough- decide where you want the rads after the knockthrough-, make sure you can get pipes to those positions.

as regards to the power flush.

plumber said he could do that but he wouldn’t bother with the current rads as they are so old and rusted that he reckons it would make them leak. He also said that the tank in the attic for the hot water system is also full of crap.
I saw the water in the rad with my own eyes, it’s full of brown rust and was evil. It burned my hands with chemical burn a little bit.

he said he could power flush the tubes but even with new rads, the hot water tank in roof is full of this brown stuff and so probably is the boiler.

he said the boiler heats, cuts out, heats etc because the circulation is so bad.

said even if he flushed pipes and new rads, doesn’t guarantee anything as that crap is prob still in the system and it will come back.

he said basically the options are:

New pump (but with all the crap in there it’s not a long term fix)

New pump and new rads and mini power flush by connecting the rad valves with pipe

all the above with a closed system (not the current open one)

failint all that new system


The flue goes up the chimney so i guess a new boiler means new duct for fumes to the outside.

the thing is, the baxi boiler we want out long term. It comes with a horrible electric fire front. We really want rid of that and to move the boiler (I understand we can’t just stick a combi in the chimney - I asked if we could!)

if I move the boiler and change the rads, is there a chance we can retain some
Of the pipework to at least save some costs? He seemed to think not worth it and just go for the whole new system if I was going that far