NO LINTELS?

[YOZZ]

I am in the process of buying a new home, a 1960s semi. the survey advised me that there may not be any lintels in the windows and doors as they used to use the frames. the windows and doors have been replaced with upvc type which don't have the same load bearing capacity.

Is this the case, as i havenever heard this before. If so how much approximately to put right?

(i apologise for shouting, and also for any other rules i have broken - but i was not aware of forum rules)

 

[breezer]

as the mods are asleep, may i ask why are you shouting (forum rule 7)

 

[^woody^]

There will most likely be a concrete lintel on the inside, and the outer brick may or may not be tied into this.

Its OK the survey saying that there "may not be any lintels" but are there or aren't there? Thats what you are paying for, you want an answer not a meaningless guess.

And if there aren't any outer lintels what is the condition of the brickwork - is it holding up nicely like it has done for the past 40 years, or dropping down and squashing the frames?

So the answer is ...... unless the surveyor tells you what is wrong, how are you supposed to know what needs putting right?

 

[Bowness72]

Are there any diagonal cracks coming from the top corners of the window extending up and towards the centre ? or signs of repointing along the same lines ?

 

[Deluks]

Knock a grand off the asking, just in case. In the current market they'll probably still accept.

 

[Shytalkz]

If there are several windows like that and requiring remedial attention (are there any diagonal cracks either end, or horizontal ones towards the middle, or visible distortion of the brickwork?), a grand won't go anywhere near covering that.

Just remember that, while there may not be any problems at the moment, it doesn't mean that there won't be in the future. The original windows supported the brickwork, Upvc is neither designed, nor capable of so doing. You inherit the problem - potential or actual - then at some point you may well have to sort it; and if you haven't haggled the price down enough, it comes out of your pocket, simple as.

Woody, the surveyor was right to flag it as a potential problem: if his instructions are only to do a visual appraisal, then he can't be expected to give a definitive answer. If he didn't mention it at all and then there was a problem, it would soon result in a visit to his PI insurers - can't have it both ways.

Chuh, there I go again, defending chartered surveyors, I need to go back to bed, obviously...

 

[jono_h]

I have the same problem in my house - you can see the soldier course bowing downwards as the uPVC frames aren't offering any support.

My neighbours have had theirs done - 4 lintels (2 at 2m, 2 at 1.5m) for about £2500 (in may have ended up nearer £3k). This was to remove the soldier course in the two front windows, insert the lintels and make good, and to take down the rear gable wall (the wall ties were shot) install the lintels, and rebuild the wall.

 

[Deluks]

Ah, in my weary eyed doziness I thought there was just the one window.

 

[^woody^]

Just because the brickwork appears to be on the plastic frames does not mean a problem. I'd expect a more definitive comment on the existence of lintels or not from a surveyor

As I said, some outer skins are tied into the internal concrete lintel so there is no problem.

The surveyor should comment on if there is a problem with the brickwork, or if from experience or from viewing other adjacent properties, if there is likely to be a problem.

Another option instead of fitting lintels, is to install steel rods into a couple of joints above to give the required support

The way to see if the load from the wall is on the frame or not is to look at the plastic frames for signs, not for cracks in the brickwork

 

[Shytalkz]

Just because the brickwork appears to be on the plastic frames does not mean a problem. I'd expect a more definitive comment on the existence of lintels or not from a surveyor

I didn't say it would. But the fact is, the potential remains for there to be a problem. This is basic stuff and any surveyor who didn't mention the apparent lack of a lintel coupled with replacement windows, would be at risk of a negligence charge, rightly or wrongly. Until engineers and surveyors are sufficiently advanced to be born with xray vision, how, from a purely visual inspection, could anyone give a definitive comment? If pressed to be definitive from such a restricted inspection, the tendency would be to lean towards the most onerous problem that could occur; that is purely a defensive position to take, more to protect PI claims history, than anything else.

As I said, some outer skins are tied into the internal concrete lintel so there is no problem.

That's a wildly optimistic comment, Woody. Failure/corrosion of the ties, for instance? And, without an intrusive investigation, how would you know for sure that they even exist? Cover meter could be picking up rebar in a concrete lintel beyond, for instance.

The surveyor should comment on if there is a problem with the brickwork, or if from experience or from viewing other adjacent properties, if there is likely to be a problem.

This is back to the point that, if there is no obvious lintel from a visual inspection and the windows are Upvc, then there is, at least, the potential for a problem to exist.

Another option instead of fitting lintels, is to install steel rods into a couple of joints above to give the required support

Yes, an option, but not always a perfect alternative.

The way to see if the load from the wall is on the frame or not is to look at the plastic frames for signs, not for cracks in the brickwork

Not necessarily: if the windows are inadequately packed, then the brickwork can relax and cracks develop, without the soffit of the brickwork resting on the window frame.

 

[^woody^]

What I'm getting at here, is that a surveyor, doing a survey should be able to say with a high degree of certainty whether there are lintels there or not.

We don't have the original survey text, just perhaps the OP's translation, but I would not expect a "maybe" but rather a more probable yes or no - are there lintels or not.

Yes I agree that the potential for non-existent lintels should be highlighted, and cautioned, but not a lazy "there may not be any lintels". After all there may not be any foundations or wall ties, and if there are no signs of distress should the surveyor also raise a few maybes here as well?

With regards to corrosion of ties into the lintel, could the same be said of a possible corroded lintel?

The are many pre and post war properties in various areas around me where the outer bricks have been tied and are joined into the cast in-situ internal lintel. These brick will happily stay there when the frames are removed. However, I regularly see surveyors reports recommending that lintels are put into these properties and its an horrendous job trying to chop these bricks out - they just wont move.

Thats why the client needs a definitive yes or no

 

[Shytalkz]

Well, tis true that it's straightforward to tell whether there is a lintel of some sort supporting the outer leaf, or not, just by the expedient of looking upwards in the window reveal!

The question thereafter is: is the lack of them either causing or likely to cause a problem. For instance, yes there are plenty constructed in the manner you describe, but you can't tell that that is always the case - even if they're next door properties - and presumption would be unwise in thse litigious times.

As you say, we only have the OP's ppossible paraphrasing of the surveyor's report and, no doubt it went beyond "there might not be any lintels" - having said that, if it was phrased like that, then it's not really any worse than the standard caveat of "We have not inspected woodwork..." that we are all forced to put in our reports by insurers. But not very good, granted!

The point is that visuals-only will always throw up a list of what-ifs; you could add drains to the list as well, of course.

 

[mctav]

This exact problem was mentioned in our homebuyers survey we had on our 1940`s semi a couple of years ago.
The bloke who did the survey must have been on something that day though as he correctly pointed out small cracks rising upwards from each corner of the UPVC windows, but failed to notice the HUGE CONCRETE WHITE PAINTED LINTELS that are apparant above each and every window.

 

[Shytalkz]

Depends what he said in the report. If he said there are cracks above the window openings and no lintels, then he was obviously wearing the wrong specs that day.

It's interesting that there are cracks, even with a concrete lintel, though. I presume that it's a boot lintel, about 75mm high, connected to the inner part of the concrete lintel?