No Ring... Where To Start?!

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We have a 1900's terrace that we are currently 'doing up', including moving some walls etc.

Currently there is a complete lack of sockets, one double socket in both bedrooms, two double sockets in both the living & dining room, and three doubles in the kitchen. From the wiring I've seen so far, there is no 'ring' in the house. Upstairs for example, one wire comes up into the bedrooms only double socket, then 3 spurs off this down to the kitchen (on the upstairs breaker too!)

Can I just start again, wire up a whole bunch of new sockets where I want them, before giving the end cables to a sparky to hook up to the consumer unit? They can unhook the old one, and I'll rip the old wires / sockets out?
 
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You need to engage an electrician before you start work and ask him if you can do the donkey work.

Strictly, s/he can only sign off work if s/he has done it, but if you leave the wiring accessible, ie boards and trapdoors loose, then if he can inspect your work and is happy that it complies, he may sign it off.
 
By the sounds of it the method used to spur your sockets does not comply to the requirements.
But identifying the "ring final circuit/RFC" would require a little more investigation.
You would first need look at CU/fuse board, see if there are circuit rated at 30/32A with two live conductors going to the protective device, also two two neutrals at neutral bar and two CPC/earths at earth bar. This alone would not confirm fro sure as some tests would then be required, because sometimes devices are shared and I have also seen RFCs split over two devices.
As part of the work and new cabling you wish to do is within the kitchen then this automatically becomes notifiable work, so look at this link.
//www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:part_p

Also if installing new socket outlets, RCD protection will be required of those circuits, if not already existing. Plus any new cabling will need to comply to the "permitted safe zones" or protected by wall depth or mechanically.
 
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We have a 1900's terrace that we are currently 'doing up', including moving some walls etc.
An ideal opportunity to get the electrical installation up to scratch. Particularly if you aren't living there at the same time, as that means that problems of mess from power tools, moving furniture, keeping/restoring power, putting floorboards back etc are lessened or removed, which makes the job quicker and therefore cheaper.


Think hard about where to have sockets - it's difficult to have too many, and also about what circuits to have. The items on the list below won't all apply to you, but they are worth thinking about:

  • Upstairs sockets
  • Downstairs sockets (or a L/R or front/rear split)
  • Kitchen sockets
  • Circuit for appliances
  • Cooker circuit
  • Non-RCD circuit for F/F
  • Non-RCD circuit for CH boiler
  • Dedicated circuit for hifi
  • Dedicated circuit for IT equipment
  • Upstairs lights
  • Downstairs lights
  • Lighting circuits with switches in the usual places but with 2A/5A round pin sockets at low level.
  • Immersion heater
  • Loft lights
  • Shower
  • Bathroom circuit
  • Alarms
  • Supply for outside lights
  • Supply for garden electrics
  • Supply for shed/garage
Plus any peculiarities brought about by your house layout & construction - e.g. in mine because of solid floors and where the socket circuits run, I have a radial just for a socket in the hall, the doorbell and the porch lights.

Unless you want to go to the expense of RCBOs throughout, the CU should have at least 3 sections, 2 on RCDs and one not into which you can install a mix of RCBOs and MCBs.

It can be a good idea to put all wiring in conduit for ease of future changes. And if you specify metal conduit for switch drops, or BS 8436 cable it removes the need to have RCDs on lighting circuits (apart from bathrooms).

If you live somewhere where supplies are dodgy in the winter, have the lights, the boiler supply, and a socket in each room wired to a separate CU, or a separate section in a large one, that can be supplied by an emergency generator - lights, heating, TV and a kettle/microwave make life a lot more bearable.

Flood-wiring with Cat6 or Cat6a cable is worth thinking about.

In terms of finding an electrician personal recommendations are, as ever, always the best way to find a reputable one, but if you're having to go ahead without much in the way of those, or references, don't put any store by registration itself - sadly it is possible to become registered with woefully inadequate qualifications and zero practical experience. You don't have to spend long here to see people cropping up who are registered and "qualified", but who are clearly seriously incompetent in reality and who should not be charging for their services.

You are looking for someone to rewire a house, and it may surprise and dismay you to learn that it is quite possible to become a "Competent Person" without ever having done that before, and without having acquired any of the practical skills needed to do it without half-destroying it in the process.

It's your money, £'000s of it, and you have every right to ask prospective tradesmen what their qualifications and experience are. Just being listed here is not a good enough guide. No genuinely experienced electrician, with the "full set" of C&G qualifications will mind you asking - in fact he will wish that everyone was like you.

I feel sorry for people who have been misled by training organisations and (shamefully) the Competent Person scheme organisers into thinking that a 5-day training course, a couple of trivial examples of their work and some basic understanding of how to use test equipment will make them an electrician, but not sorry enough to agree with them trying to sell their services to Joe Public.
 
I think this thread might need some cleaning! ;)

We are living in the house at the same time, which means the "take everything up at once" approach is not an option.

I've had a closer look at upstairs, there is two mains wires coming up at the top of the stairs. One goes right to the bedroom / drops to kitchen as described, the other left to (I assume) the only socket in the front bedroom. "Upstairs sockets" is on one trip fuse in the box.

Any clues?
 
By the sounds of it there's a significant amount of changes and additions to be made - lots of new sockets and switches etc, new circuits, a new consumer unit.

It really doesn't matter what you have right now - you electrician will re-use what he can and remove what he can't
 
New consumer unit?

Anyway, it would be good to understand what is going on. One, because then I have am idea as what the job is. If you have a vague idea of what is what, saves getting ripped off. Two, I'll do as much as I can myself. I'm not going to pay a sparky to lift floorboards, drill through joists and thread cable though if can do it myself for free.
 
New consumer unit?
I can guarantee it.


Anyway, it would be good to understand what is going on. One, because then I have am idea as what the job is. If you have a vague idea of what is what, saves getting ripped off.
Can you tell us what the IR values are for the existing circuits, and the maximum fault loop impedances?


Two, I'll do as much as I can myself. I'm not going to pay a sparky to lift floorboards, drill through joists and thread cable though if can do it myself for free.
You need to engage an electrician before you start work and ask him if you can do the donkey work.
 
I doubt I need one everytime one walks in the door. I have a new one anyay . Don't worry I don't fancy touching the box ;)

No idea what you on about, but I can learn! :D

I guess a fair few will sign off? Afterall who really cares who put the cable down, its the connections etc that is where things could go wrong?
 
You really aren't listening to the advice given - are you?

No sparky is able (or would want to) sign off anyone else's work esp a DIY'er. Why should I risk my reputation and livelihood sighing off work done by someone I don't know and who doesn't' know the regulations? We do care, for example, how and where cable is run as it needs to be done correctly. It;s not JUST about the connections

As has been said already - your best hope is to try and find an electrician before you start any work and see if he will oversee what you do so that he can/will sign off.

I fear that if you do't do this and try and get someone at the end, they will either refuse or rip it all out and start again
 
But if the work is done correctly already, they not going to turn up and relay it exactly as they found it are they?
 
I doubt I need one everytime one walks in the door.
¿Que?


I have a new one anyay .
You have a 1900's house, with hardly any sockets, the kitchen ones are spurred off the upstairs circuit. None of that makes it sound like it's been kept up to date.

Yet it has a new consumer unit?

How new? What does it have in the way of RCDs/RCBOs? How many spare slots does it have?

Who installed it?


Don't worry I don't fancy touching the box
Wise.


No idea what you on about, but I can learn!
I'm on about the fact that you seem so certain that the existing circuits can be reused/incorporated into the new ones that you must know that they are sound.


I guess a fair few will sign off? Afterall who really cares who put the cable down, its the connections etc that is where things could go wrong?
It doesn't work like that. You need find your electrician and agree with him what work you may do.
 
If you read my previous post(s) I have no intention to reuse any of the existing wire or sockets. Simply to get the new wires in place, have the floorboards up, chisel the walls etc. Then they can connect up the sockets and new consumer box, then test all they want. I can then rip out the old disconnected stuff.

The box is about 2007, and as already stated is being replaced. My point being, you can't say it wants replacing when you do not know what is there. I could have had a brand new one last week for all you knew.

There is only so many ways to put wires through a joist or into a wall, so a point towards the latest accepted standards would be more useful. The existing lot currently goes through the centre of the 9" joists, and lays on the ceiling when running same direction as the joists.
 
As you don't seem to be accepting the advice given, perhaps you should go and read the "Approved document for PART P of the building regulations" yourself. It is a FREE download and a pretty easy read. Here is the link http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/AD_P_wm.pdf

To help you understand some of the above comments I will direct you to paragraph 1.28, but feel free to read it in it entirity
 

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