One pipe system, industrial style pipes: boiler exploded...

[ChrisR]

Is a high order buffoon better than a low order buffoon?
ANd why do you get "middle order" in other things, like batsmen, but not buffoons?

 

[simond]

We've had SO many different quotes and different advice: we really need a neutral opinion.

How many quotes exactly ?


You can fit a Worcester heat only boiler (eg: Ri, CDi conventional) on a one pipe system.

Some sort of a dirt trap eg: Spirovent or magnaclean, would be a very good idea as a powerflush is not going to work on a one pipe.

To meet building regs you need to fit TRVs in bedrooms, these have to be expensive wide bore units (available from Drayton and Honeywell amongst others, usually special order).

In our area we would suggest a WB if you are on a budget, or a Kidd VHE if you are not, for this application. But so much depends on looking at it, the condition of the pipework is key and no one here has that information.

It is true that a one pipe is less efficient, but if they look right in a period property that is important too.

 

[monkeybird]

doitall, yes, we did ask the company who maintain the university's heating. But they were underwhelming in their advice. Didn't seem to know any of the stuff you guys know.

'How many quotes'?! Cheeky rascal. Enough to realise I know very little about heating systems but not enough to get a definitive answer. I know you guys are experts but for the real life punter, unless you know people who know people it is actually quite difficult to find a reputable plumber who you trust not to fleece you. We got three guys in first time round and got three totally different pieces of advice, some of which we didn't trust. So we got two more. We sat on the info, until know since the boiler has died.

I might try one of the HE associations you mentioned.

 

[nickso]

Is a high order buffoon better than a low order buffoon?
ANd why do you get "middle order" in other things, like batsmen, but not buffoons?

a high order buffoon is able to crawl further up their own arse.

 

[doitall]

To meet building regs you need to fit TRVs in bedrooms, these have to be expensive wide bore units (available from Drayton and Honeywell amongst others, usually special order).

In our area we would suggest a WB if you are on a budget, or a Kidd VHE if you are not, for this application. But so much depends on looking at it, the condition of the pipework is key and no one here has that information.

It is true that a one pipe is less efficient, but if they look right in a period property that is important too.

The only reason it would be less efficient is because the installer didn't have a clue.

The simplest way is to, install an compensator valve, or in other words have a controlled temperature circuit.

A few proper heating guys like simond should be able to work that out.

 

[monkeybird]

Hi again

Just been looking up Kidd boilers and installers. No website so rang the company. And ended up talking to Mr Kidd the third.

Mad as a box of frogs but lovely and very helpful.

They are going to send me some installers in my area so even if we don't go with one of their boilers (are they horribly expensive?) perhaps that will be the kind of bloke we need.

 

[Agile]

'How many quotes'?! Cheeky rascal. Enough to realise I know very little about heating systems but not enough to get a definitive answer. I know you guys are experts but for the real life punter, unless you know people who know people it is actually quite difficult to find a reputable plumber who you trust not to fleece you. We got three guys in first time round and got three totally different pieces of advice, some of which we didn't trust. So we got two more. We sat on the info, until know since the boiler has died.

I can see that you are a nice person so I am trying to say this nicely and as advice rather than admonishment!

The purpose of quotes is to give a firm the opportunity of doing the work. It is not intended to be free advice! If that was the case I could spend my entire life giving free advice visits.

I give free budgetary quotes over the phone. If the customer wants me to visit to advise on a sutable system then I charge £84. If the customer wants us to do the work but is unsure of the exact specification then I might charge £30 in case they take my advice and go to someone cheaper.

You have to understand that we encounter many people who get a free quotation and then have East Europeans install the systems to the spec in the quotation or even do it themselves. A few even have the cheek to ask the original quoter to come and commission it!

Tony

 

[monkeybird]

Tony,

I appreciate what you're saying and completely understand you must get fed up with time-wasters. But the alternative for us - with such a complicated system which we want to maintain rather than just rip out - is what? Of our 3 quotes we were told 3 completely different things, at least one of which we knew to be wrong.

I just don't trust the bloke who says 'no problem, we can install any boiler in there', because I think he might discover halfway through the job he can't carry on unless he strips all the pipes and rads out. I don't trust the guy either who says 'oh yes, strip it all out and put a new system in' because I know that isn't necessary either.

So how do I go about finding someone who really does know what they're doing with these kind of pipes without them coming out and having a look?

Not being arsey, genuinely wondering.

 

[monkeybird]

Would be happy BTW to pay an 'advisory' charge to an expert who had experience of maintaining old systems.

But where to find one?

Even the Institute of Chartered Heating Engineers has a huge variety of people one there, some 'put in a new combi' plumbers, some obviously with wider experience. With what are essentially 50 year old commercial pipes, you'll agree, your average plumber is a bit stumped?

 

[doitall]

That is all very well Tony, but you only have to look around DiyNot, to judge the type of advice the OP is getting.

The purpose of getting quotes is as you said because the OP wants a new boiler.

If one or a hundred and one guys turn up that haven't a clue, what is the OP supposed to do, other than keep looking.

Any boiler will work perfectly well and efficiently on a one pipe system, as I have said, an low loss header, and temperature controlled circuit.

A crude example.

 

[Agile]

With what are essentially 50 year old commercial pipes, you'll agree, your average plumber is a bit stumped?

Dont worry, I fully understand.

But a quoter, short of work, who trots round to give a quote and can start the next day is not going to be one of those who is going to be likely to be able to do the job properly.

The best installers are booked up a few weeks in advance!

Your best bet is to find a member of the IDHEE or ( second ) the IPHE ( now CIPHE ) as both have a complaints procedure and are likly to be much more experienced ( well in the IDHEE anyway ).

Or better still to employ a heating consultant to specify the system but not do the work but be aware they usually charge about £200-£400.

Tony

 

[monkeybird]

Hi again

All advice much appreciated.

Are heating consultants in the phonebook? How could I find one?

If I posted some pics and told you guys exactly what I'd like to achieve (ultimately: don't think we can afford to do everything in one go) would you be able to give me a. an idea of what technical info (boiler, cylinder, controls, connections) etc we need to aim for and b. what ballpark figures we'd be looking at?

Or is that stretching your goodwill too far?

Not that you'll agree anyway: I can see I've waded into some longstanding cans o'worms here!

 

[Agile]

Any boiler will work perfectly well and efficiently

A condensing boiler works most efficiently with a flow at 70° and a return at 50°C.

On a one pipe designed for historic room temperatures ( 16° in bedroons ! ) and a flow temperature of 82°C the system has got to be operated with a differential of only 11°C otherwise the end of the chain will be too cool.

During coldest weather the flow temperature willl need to be 82° which is outside the condensing operation of the boiler. That means that during the coldest weather the boiler will be rather less efficient.

However with careful design and using weather compensation ( which rules out Worcester boilers ) a boiler will still be pretty efficient.

A possible solution will be to add extra heat emitters probably connected in parallel ( which needs careful balancing ) as that can contribute to a greater flow/return differential to increase boiler efficiency.

But all that needs somebody with above average knowledge of heating systems!

Tony

 

[doitall]

You are missing the point again Tony and over complicating the issues.

What is underfloor heating other than a series of one pipe loops.

With the temperature controlled circuit you can have the return temperature to the boiler at whatever you like in relation to the flow

 

[monkeybird]

Sorry to do this to you but since someone asked, you can see the crazy plumbing here. The pipes just run round the outer wall of each room and go through the walls to the next etc.. WE like this: they do give off heat but as this is within main living rooms anyway it doesn't matter. Only one of two places where pipes run under floor etc..

Sorry - the pics seem to have rotated back again even though they were right way up in Photoshop

Other info: Cold water tank in loft, crappy, badly lagged cylinder in bathroom (see photo), 5 beds (but we're poor as have 3 kids!), would like to maintain original features in house, would like eventually to have another shower room and some solar water heating. Right now priority is getting a working, robust heating system before winter at the best value (ie lowest spend but for best system)

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