sorry edited
planning enforcement
- Thread starter markbrick1
- Start date
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R
RedHerring2
Over the years we have had long standing problems with enforcement,
to say iam peed with them is an understatement
The above comment was posted 22 December on another of your posts.
//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=254566&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
Perhaps when the LA receives anything from you they go into a 'It's him again' mode.
anyway back to my question..
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Hi, I work in Planning Enforcement and the legislation is frustrating, even more so I can imagine for members of the public, who are not fully aware of it's workings.
It is not an offence to build something without planning permisison, it only becomes an offence if you fail to comply with a notice served in respect to it. Before you get to this stage, however, the works must be deemed to be unacceptable in planning terms. If the LPA have stated it is not 'expedient to pursue' I would assume that they consider that the development would have been granted planning permission if applied for. In this case their hands are tied you cannot take enforcement action against a development which is acceptable (Well you can, but, this would result in appeal loss with costs coming out of the taxpayers pocket).
The reasoning behind the way the system works is that the point is not to punish people for breaching planning controls only to control development and assure no unacceptable development occurs. This is good in many ways as it protects members of the public who make genuine mistakes, however, it is open for abuse (and is abused) by people who know how the system works and just cannot be bothered with the costs associated with gaining PP.
Also be aware that often garages and small extensions do not require planning permission and maybe permitted development. Also the internal changes to the house including dropping of floors would not require PP, although the raising of the roof by 2m would, the insertion, replacement or removal of windows would also be unlikley to require PP, unless in Conservation area or the building is listed.
It is not an offence to build something without planning permisison, it only becomes an offence if you fail to comply with a notice served in respect to it. Before you get to this stage, however, the works must be deemed to be unacceptable in planning terms. If the LPA have stated it is not 'expedient to pursue' I would assume that they consider that the development would have been granted planning permission if applied for. In this case their hands are tied you cannot take enforcement action against a development which is acceptable (Well you can, but, this would result in appeal loss with costs coming out of the taxpayers pocket).
The reasoning behind the way the system works is that the point is not to punish people for breaching planning controls only to control development and assure no unacceptable development occurs. This is good in many ways as it protects members of the public who make genuine mistakes, however, it is open for abuse (and is abused) by people who know how the system works and just cannot be bothered with the costs associated with gaining PP.
Also be aware that often garages and small extensions do not require planning permission and maybe permitted development. Also the internal changes to the house including dropping of floors would not require PP, although the raising of the roof by 2m would, the insertion, replacement or removal of windows would also be unlikley to require PP, unless in Conservation area or the building is listed.
Yea especially frustrating given the backhanders, lunches and other 'gifts' that corrupt so many of the senior planners these days!
thankyou some very good information there,
J
joinerjohn
Your neighbours will probably claim that they are members of the travelling community who have decided to put some roots down. As such they'll be exempt from all planning application procedures, Just as long as they drop the application off at 3:30pm on a Friday immediately before a bank holiday.
Daibrau, we have been waiting over 13 weeks now for our application to be determined. We live opposite a councillor and he has controlled everything that happens in our road for years.
We won the access we have applied for at appeal but that has now expired so we thought that this application could not be refused as nothing of any importance like new policy has changed since the appeal decision.
We have been delayed and stonewalled by our planning officer.The Town Council have objected even though our application was supported as part a larger application in June including this access and though that proposal was refused, the access did not form any part of the decision notice.
We have been told that our present application will be unable to be decided if we continue to take down the wall which is where the pedestrian gate is to be widened to create the vehicle access as it will now not match the plans submitted.
Is this true?
We have seen other developers start work before permission has been granted and a blind eye turned though we know that would not apply to us if it is only a discretion.
Initially the enforcement bloke said we would have to reapply for the work done prior to the determination. As that would only be conservation consent it would not be a problem.
We won the access we have applied for at appeal but that has now expired so we thought that this application could not be refused as nothing of any importance like new policy has changed since the appeal decision.
We have been delayed and stonewalled by our planning officer.The Town Council have objected even though our application was supported as part a larger application in June including this access and though that proposal was refused, the access did not form any part of the decision notice.
We have been told that our present application will be unable to be decided if we continue to take down the wall which is where the pedestrian gate is to be widened to create the vehicle access as it will now not match the plans submitted.
Is this true?
We have seen other developers start work before permission has been granted and a blind eye turned though we know that would not apply to us if it is only a discretion.
Initially the enforcement bloke said we would have to reapply for the work done prior to the determination. As that would only be conservation consent it would not be a problem.
Hi,
As I'm not aware of all the facts, the development you propose, the area etc I don't think it would be right to comment with regards to the majority of your post. Plannings not a straightforward matter and I wouldnt want to give misleading advice.
With regards to the time taken and the feeling your being stonewalled as a result of the councillors input you do have an alternative option. You can submit an appeal on the basis of non determination. This is when your application has past the 8 week period for determination. I would only take such action though if the outcome of the application doesn't appear near and you have done everything asked of you by the council (submitted any additional info requested etc)
You could also consider employing an experienced planning consultant to advise you. The cost may be minimal in terms of percentage of project cost. They will know the area, the planning officers and the legislation and would be well placed to answer your questions.
As I'm not aware of all the facts, the development you propose, the area etc I don't think it would be right to comment with regards to the majority of your post. Plannings not a straightforward matter and I wouldnt want to give misleading advice.
With regards to the time taken and the feeling your being stonewalled as a result of the councillors input you do have an alternative option. You can submit an appeal on the basis of non determination. This is when your application has past the 8 week period for determination. I would only take such action though if the outcome of the application doesn't appear near and you have done everything asked of you by the council (submitted any additional info requested etc)
You could also consider employing an experienced planning consultant to advise you. The cost may be minimal in terms of percentage of project cost. They will know the area, the planning officers and the legislation and would be well placed to answer your questions.
Thanks for your reply daibrau.
If you start work before the application has been determined does this invalidate that application?
We wondered whether we could maybe withdraw the application and finish removing the part of the wall creating the access then resubmitting the proposal part retrospective?
We have been told by the planners that they are supporting us once we provide a plan the Tree officer has asked for. We have did that last week and still have no idea what's going on. They say it may go to committee on the 9th February, we assume that being demanded by the local member our neighbour.
The enforcement bloke is telling us to hang on and push the planning officer for a decision as we may delay it further.
We need to get the house on the market and this may mean we have to sell the house without a vehicle access even though because of the access being allowed on appeal we have always considered we could divide the land to create a plot.
We are aware that we can appeal for non determination but it is time consuming and unjust.
If you start work before the application has been determined does this invalidate that application?
We wondered whether we could maybe withdraw the application and finish removing the part of the wall creating the access then resubmitting the proposal part retrospective?
We have been told by the planners that they are supporting us once we provide a plan the Tree officer has asked for. We have did that last week and still have no idea what's going on. They say it may go to committee on the 9th February, we assume that being demanded by the local member our neighbour.
The enforcement bloke is telling us to hang on and push the planning officer for a decision as we may delay it further.
We need to get the house on the market and this may mean we have to sell the house without a vehicle access even though because of the access being allowed on appeal we have always considered we could divide the land to create a plot.
We are aware that we can appeal for non determination but it is time consuming and unjust.
In the majority of circumstances no starting work prior to determination would not invalidate the application. There are, however, circumstances where this can occur. It would appear your site is a sensitive area (con area, protected trees) which enhances the chances of the latter. Planning officers and indeed enforcement officers are advising you this could be the case I would suggest that you take there advice. as before I am afraid I cannot advise you further based on information received via a forum.
If they advise that they are going to support your application I would suggest that it will go before the committee recommended for approval. Whilst committe can go against such a recommendation this is not, in my experience, a frequent occurrence. So I would look on the bright side at the moment.
The reason an application goes before committe can vary dependent on different councils policies, however, in most if not all authorities a request by a councillor would be one such reason. The planning officer would be obliged to tell you the reason, so ask. With regards to the councillor given his close proximity to the site I would suggest that he has a personal interest in the development, in my view (if he sits on the committee) he should declare an interest. He should not be utilising his position as an elected member to influence a decision for personal reasons. It is at his discretion, however, to do so. Perhaps you could try forcing his hand by writing a letter to that effect which would go on file or play the politics game and see if a councillor from another party with an axe to grind will support you and make such a suggestion.
Given you have a committe date and your application is to be supported I agree it would not be appropriate to appeal non-determination.
If they advise that they are going to support your application I would suggest that it will go before the committee recommended for approval. Whilst committe can go against such a recommendation this is not, in my experience, a frequent occurrence. So I would look on the bright side at the moment.
The reason an application goes before committe can vary dependent on different councils policies, however, in most if not all authorities a request by a councillor would be one such reason. The planning officer would be obliged to tell you the reason, so ask. With regards to the councillor given his close proximity to the site I would suggest that he has a personal interest in the development, in my view (if he sits on the committee) he should declare an interest. He should not be utilising his position as an elected member to influence a decision for personal reasons. It is at his discretion, however, to do so. Perhaps you could try forcing his hand by writing a letter to that effect which would go on file or play the politics game and see if a councillor from another party with an axe to grind will support you and make such a suggestion.
Given you have a committe date and your application is to be supported I agree it would not be appropriate to appeal non-determination.
Thanks daibrau,
As it happens I have done exactly what you said today and have written to the planning manager asking what grounds the councillor has to demand it goes to committee.
I have pointed out that we cannot see any material reasons to justify it but I am guessing that he intends to claim a neighbours Appeal Decision subsequent to our Appeal Decision means that ours should be looked at again even though the neighbour further up the road was applying to remove his whole boundary wall which was a substantial alteration.
I thought that the committee would be advised very much against refusing a supported application that has already been allowed at Appeal but from previous experience of our Planning Committee they do what they like.
As it happens I have done exactly what you said today and have written to the planning manager asking what grounds the councillor has to demand it goes to committee.
I have pointed out that we cannot see any material reasons to justify it but I am guessing that he intends to claim a neighbours Appeal Decision subsequent to our Appeal Decision means that ours should be looked at again even though the neighbour further up the road was applying to remove his whole boundary wall which was a substantial alteration.
I thought that the committee would be advised very much against refusing a supported application that has already been allowed at Appeal but from previous experience of our Planning Committee they do what they like.
We are inclined to carry on with the wall as it does not affect any protected trees, it is overturning and has to be rebuilt anyway and will allow us to get a skip in to remove the soil and bushes that are banked up the back of it. We would only remove the part forming the access so if any further application had to be made, it would surely only be conservation area consent to demolish?
We can't get a skip in through the gate of the other side of our garden that is forming the new plot as it is a bit narrow and until that wall is rebuilt for the same reasons of it overturning, as it is surrounded by trees, the skip lorry could possibly damage them.
We have split our land and started to put up a fence which has created a lot of flack. The planning officer said that the Tree Officer has stated that we should have got TPO permission to erect the fence and that because we inadvertedly put it up without it we have stalled our application! The tree officer in an email, we have only just seen, stated that he was going to claim a breach of the TPO had taken place.
We wrote to the planning officer and said there was nothing on our TPO that said that we had to apply for perimission to do anything except that which was to the tree. He said that the fence should have formed part of our application and had it done so he would have refused permission for us to erect a fence in the RPA of this tree! ( this tree BTW is in decline and the tree officer diagnosed Honey Fungus Oestoye a few years ago!)
We stated that we were careful digging minimum post holes and avoiding damaging roots.
As the enforcement bloke has not mentioned anything to do with the fence or trees, we firmly believe we are right regarding this and the TO is being a bully and talking B*ll*cks.
We can't get a skip in through the gate of the other side of our garden that is forming the new plot as it is a bit narrow and until that wall is rebuilt for the same reasons of it overturning, as it is surrounded by trees, the skip lorry could possibly damage them.
We have split our land and started to put up a fence which has created a lot of flack. The planning officer said that the Tree Officer has stated that we should have got TPO permission to erect the fence and that because we inadvertedly put it up without it we have stalled our application! The tree officer in an email, we have only just seen, stated that he was going to claim a breach of the TPO had taken place.
We wrote to the planning officer and said there was nothing on our TPO that said that we had to apply for perimission to do anything except that which was to the tree. He said that the fence should have formed part of our application and had it done so he would have refused permission for us to erect a fence in the RPA of this tree! ( this tree BTW is in decline and the tree officer diagnosed Honey Fungus Oestoye a few years ago!)
We stated that we were careful digging minimum post holes and avoiding damaging roots.
As the enforcement bloke has not mentioned anything to do with the fence or trees, we firmly believe we are right regarding this and the TO is being a bully and talking B*ll*cks.
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