Planning Permission and Permitted Development

[ziggy1979]

Hi Everyone

We're waiting on planning permission but we fear we may not get what we want. Basically we want a 2-storey side extension maintaining the same roof line as the existing roof over the side extension. We'd then build a hip to gable to do a loft conversion (separately under permitted development). It looks like the planner dealing with the application wants a smaller roof over the side extension ie not continue the existing roof line.

A builder we had round to quote said it was fine as after we get planning (but before he builds the smaller approved roof (ie while he's building the two storey side extension) we can submit for a hip to gable under permitted development and continue the existing roof line in that manner.

What we'd like to know is if this is possible/allowed? My understanding of the permitted development rules is that provided we meet the relevant criteria mainly regarding volume in the roof space (which we do) then we can build the planners proposed roof, remove it and build the gable wall. However I can't find any information on whether we can submit (and have approved) under permitted development a hip to gable before the "planners" roof is built. It would save a lot of money if we can do like the builder said so it would be great if any of you guys have ever seen this sort of thing before.

Thanks a lot for any advice!

 

[tony1851]

However I can't find any information on whether we can submit (and have approved) under permitted development a hip to gable before the "planners" roof is built.

You can't do that because you would be changing the approved design.

 

[ziggy1979]

Hi Tony

Thanks for your reply. So would we have to build the approved roof and then remove it once completed (relying on permitted development rights)?

Thanks again.

 

[rjm2k]

You may find pd is removed as part of pp approval but dont forget pd applies to the original house so you may have exceeded your limits via pp .

 

[tony1851]

As above, I think you will only be able to rely on pd rights if you turned the original hip into a gable. Having said that, the gable would then cut through your (new) side extension roof. This would mean that technically, your roof enlargement would then be forward of a plane of roof facing the front, and would fall foul of p.d.

You could be walking into a minefield here if you try and be too clever about the rules. Play safe and discuss with your LPA. If in doubt, make an application for a LDC.

 

[ziggy1979]

Hi RJM

Thanks for your post. Can PD rights be removed simply by granting planning permission? Reading the planning portal it mentions situations where PD rights are removed eg Article 4 directions etc but nothing that allows a LPA to remove an individual property's PD rights simply because they were granted planning permission. I'd be really grateful if you could please point me in the right direction for this situation.

Thanks again!

 

[ziggy1979]

Found it!

Should we apply for a lawful development certificate before we get planning permission? Alternatively, if planning permission removes PD rights do PD rights disappear from the date the decision is issued even if we decide not to build as per the planning permission?

 

[tony1851]

PD rights do not inevitably 'disappear' when a planning permission is obtained - it depends on the individual circumstances; it is rarely possible to be definate one way or the other without seeing the plans.

If you have planning permission for some development, there is nothing to stop you applying for a LDC at any time, whether the development has been built or not.

 

[jeds]

To add to what tony has said, PD only applies to the original house so you won't get a CoL to convert a hipped extension roof to a gable. You also can't mix PD and permitted works. Each would have to be complete before the other could be started.

 

[cjard]

Hi Everyone

We're waiting on planning permission but we fear we may not get what we want.

People seldom do; the planners have to justify their existence somehow. Put something in that's sensible within the context of the scheme, but is something you don't actually want, and can either accept the planners demanding its removal, or can offer to remove it in bargaining to keep a feature that you do want

 

[ziggy1979]

Hi Everyone thank you all again for your help!

Tony/Jeds my concern was that the planning permission itself could somehow be used by the LPA as a means of suspending any and all PD rights regardless of whether we went ahead with building as per the PP or not. I'm now assuming that this is not the case and that our actually building the approved scheme could impact on the ability to rely on PD for certain works rather than a written suspension of PD rights contained within the PP.

Given your advice, am i right in thinking that we might want to proceed along the following lines.

1. Wait and see what PP we get.
2. After PP decision, apply for CoL re hip to gable of the existing roof.
3. Have hip to gable built over the existing roof.
4. Seek amendment to PP to allow hipped roof to be built over the side extension - from the gable down to the side extension's eves (perhaps with a side dormer?)
5. Build side extension.

cjard I tried hard to make that point to both my wife and architect many many times and they both said it would antagonise the planners, that it would be silly, pointless, etc etc. Unfortunately now all I have left now is "i told you so"

 

[jeds]

A CoL isn't a permission to do something, it's a legal certificate to confirm that a proposal is lawful within PD rules. So if the proposal is not within PD rules you'd be wasting your time applying. What you need is planning permission.

 

[pedantician]

You may find pd is removed as part of pp approval but dont forget pd applies to the original house so you may have exceeded your limits via pp .

I think what rjm2k means is that when the council issues planning permission they might add a condition to the approval which removes your pd rights. They can do this, but don't often do it for extensions. It is frequently done on permissions for new houses (individual ones or as part of larger developments).

 

[pedantician]

The planners normally require extension roofs to be set down from the existing roof, so that the extension doesn't visually dominate the main house. They also usually require the walls to be set back from the main front wall of the house. They are not so worried at the rear, but I would be surprised if you are allowed to go flush at the front.

You would have to complete the construction of the extension before being able to do a hip to gable conversion under pd.

The extension roof volume will need to be subtracted from the overall pd allowance (40m3 for a terraced house, 50m3 otherwise) so check roof volumes carefully.

If the conversion roof + extension roof is still within the limit, apply for LDC before doing any work, to be on the safe side (and also so you have paperwork for when you sell the house later on).