Planning permission refused.

[Mottie]

As above, I've just had planning permission refused for two one-bed flats to be built on a plot of land I own. The local authority had said that one-bed flats are just slightly too small plus the top flat would have no outside space. They have said that the site is good for housing development and heavily intimated that they are short of 3-bed houses in the area and that such a development would fall in line with local requirements so I'm going to resubmit plans for a 3 bed house.

I was planning to have electric heating for each flat.

On the plus side, only one entrance door, one water and electrucity supply, one kitchen, one bathroom to be fitted plus no need for a specially soundproofed floor between the two.

On the negative side, I'll need a gas supply to the property and a combi gas heating system installed as I don't think a modern 3 bed house could be heated effectively without it. Or could it.

My question is, generally, would it be cheaper to build a 3 bed house compared to two one-bed flats?

 

[bernardgreen]

I'll need a gas supply to the property and a combi gas heating system installed

You could ( possiby should ) use a non combi boiler. Be aware that a combi boiler has to be large enough in terms of kWatts of heating to provide instant hot water at a high flow rate ( as much as 48 kW is being quoted as necessary for a shower ) yet will have to modulate down to a much lower heat output to maintain the house warm ( maybe as low as 4 kW in a well insulated house ). Efficiency at one level maybe as high as 95% but what is the efficiency at the other level.

Questions you need to ask the installer ( or several installers ) before you decide on combi or non combi

 

[pete50]

Forget the installers they will just tell to have what is easiest and cheapest for them. Ask people who have them. I have had two and they were absolute rubbish. Hell having a shower when someone else uses a tap elsewhere. I would never ever have another combi although the eco clowns will probably force me to have one sooner or LATER.

 

[wessex101]

If the buildings were otherwise identical then the house would be slightly cheaper to build, both for the reasons you have already identified but also the house will not need same level of fire separation and sound insulation between floors.

However, surely the key question is the value of the finished development? How would a 3 bed house stack up against 2 flats? Also if the plot is not big enough for a couple a 1 bed flats a 3 bed house is going to be a bit of a squeeze.

 

[Mottie]

One 3 bed house on the same site will need less space than 2 one-bed flats as only one living room, one kitchen and one bathroom will be needed.

The architect (and the planning officer who visited the site last week) tells me it is big enough to meet standards for a 3 bed house (using the loft space) and as for value, 3 beds in that area go for £450k+ and one bed flats £200k plus so won't be losing out on flats value wise. I was considering letting the flats out - they go for around the £1000/month mark whereas 3 bed houses go for a round the £1600/month mark.

By the time it's built and finished it'll probably be worth near the £500k if current trends continue and, at nearly 60 years old, if I sold it I could easily live on £20k per year from the money for the next 25 years assuming I live that long!

Anyway, sell or rent is a decision I won't think about until it's built - assuming I get permission!

 

[wessex101]

Good luck to you. It sounds like a very lucrative little development and potential pension.

 

[garyo]

Or could it.

A friend was just looking at a house with electric only heating. It was a new build in a pretty leafy location, air source heat pump driving a proportion of the downstairs under-floor heating. The vendors swore that it's so well insulated that it's irrelevant - compared to having a gas combi in a 30 year old house, and they were prepared to share their electricity bills to prove it.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

As above, I've just had planning permission refused for two one-bed flats to be built on a plot of land I own. The local authority had said that one-bed flats are just slightly too small plus the top flat would have no outside space. They have said that the site is good for housing development and heavily intimated that they are short of 3-bed houses in the area and that such a development would fall in line with local requirements so I'm going to resubmit plans for a 3 bed house.

I was planning to have electric heating for each flat.

On the plus side, only one entrance door, one water and electrucity supply, one kitchen, one bathroom to be fitted plus no need for a specially soundproofed floor between the two.

On the negative side, I'll need a gas supply to the property and a combi gas heating system installed as I don't think a modern 3 bed house could be heated effectively without it. Or could it.

My question is, generally, would it be cheaper to build a 3 bed house compared to two one-bed flats?

I'd get a refund and find another designer, the reasons it was rejected are all standard reasons for anyone to read in the Local Plan Guidance.

 

[Mottie]

She was recommended to me by someone and to be fair to her, she did warn me beforehand and suggested a single house so it would have been more of a surprise if it had gone through but said I could try if I wanted and if refused, she would change it to a single house for no extra.

Out of interest, what do you think is a fair price for this by the architect?

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

It was your fault then!

 

[cjard]

If an architect is prepared to redraw your 2 flat plans into 1 house plans for no money on top of what you've already paid, then it doesn't matter what we think is reasonable.. You found her price reasonable first time round, and have paid it. If your free upgrade to the house plans passes you got what you wanted for what you were happy to pay. Definition of a bargain and no amount of bullshit from a bloke on the Internet has any bearing

Re your heating woes, ring 1gas and ask them to quote for putting a gas connection in. Then look at oil, or a calor tank. Then price up an air source heat pump for comparison. I wasn't on the gas grid, am half a mile from the nearest gas connection so that was out. Calor tanks are expensive ongoing though cheap to install if you self dig the hole and reasonably theft prof. Oil suffers theft and is a bit of a stink, requires regular servicing but is fairly well understood and widespread. In the end I got an air source heat pump and I'm delighted with it. It cost 5k, I'll get 7k back from a govt grant. It takes about an hour and costs 2 quid to heat 300litres of water in a well insulated cylinder to 55 degrees (that's from cold, it's typically less as the cylinder is rarely fully depleted in a day). That price would drop if I switched to economy 7

Warning: air source heat pumps only work effectively for space heating in a well designed and properly constructed dwelling with good levels of insulation and draught proofing. If you build a poor quality, draughty, and ineffectively insulated home you will end up taking that ASHP out, or supplementing it with another higher temperature device. I'd recommend you look at using timber frame and underfloor heating in a poured liquid screed. Timber frame is a lot easier to get the insulated envelope right, because you don't have to rely on a brickie with more teeth than brain cells (and they don't often have a lot of teeth) to correctly and accurately install boards in a cavity during the construction of a standard block wall.. You'll need to keep on top of the trades doing any work involving bashing a hole in your walls, or filling a hole in your walls, to make sure they're doing a good job of sealing gaps up after they finish smashing things to bits

 

[garyo]

delighted with it. It cost 5k, I'll get 7k back from a govt grant

Can you elaborate on how that works?

 

[cjard]

The domestic renewable heat incentive:

You have your property assessed for its heating requirements, this gives an estimated figure for the number of kWh heat demand in a year. Let's say it comes out at 30,000 and you get an EPC certificate showing this.

You have an MCS registered company fit an air source heat pump sized suitably to the heating demand of the house, with reference to the type of heat emitter (underfloor, or oversized radiator usually), and you get an MCS certificate

you apply to ofgem for the RHI grant, they assess your application and start making quarterly payments for 7 years, into your bank account, either based on an equation related to the heat demand and efficiency of the pump, or they have you fit a meter and pay you based on that

The equation is relatively simple.. Heat pumps produce more heat energy than they consume. In typical conditions a heat pump should produce 3kwh of heat for every 1 kWh of electricity used. That means to provide the 30,000 above will require 10,000kwh of electricity. Because the heat pump generates the difference of 20,000 "by renewable magic" that is what you get paid on. The current payment rate for an air source heat pump is (allegedly) 10p per kWh so that's around 2 grand a year or 500 a quarter, for 7 years..

Some installations require meters to be fitted, maybe most will in future. If metered you're paid for what the meter says you've used rather than the estimate

My 5k was definitely cheap, my unit isn't ErP marked (as they must now all be) and had to be installed by a certain date. As it had a short shelf life, the unit was cheap and I put the underfloor heating in myself. Their plumber connected the machine, you have to have a G3 cert to work on sealed systems. My father in law had a similar machine and uh system installed by he now defunct Ice Energy, his cost was around 13k, and he'll get 11k back

The current scheme has a cap on the number of units you can claim for, so there's an incentive to reduce the heat demand of your house if it needs more heat, but the slight flaw in the govt plan is it doesn't exactly encourage people to insulate their homes as best they can before installing such a tech. However, the poorer the insulation the harder the tech has to work so the more risk of knackering it up..

Many kinds of tech can be claimed for, for more info Google the RHI

One of the best aspects of ground and air source heat pumps is that they're clean and quiet, have minimal maintenance requirements (they're basically reverse refrigerators?) and need only electricity. They can be plumbed in by a DIY person and you'd only need a G3 certified person if you install a mains pressure hot water tank so if you have the appetite for it you can cut your costs. To be valid for rhi he system must be installed by an MCS registered member company and they do charge a premium to cover their membership.. Eg your local mate plumber could install an ASHP for eg 5 grand components and labour. The same thing from an MCS co would be more like 8, but you can then claim the RHI and get most or more of it back

The guys that installed mine were great to deal with and good value, they're down your way (but they travelled 200 miles to fit mine).. PM me if you'd like their info

 

[Mottie]

She was recommended to me by someone and to be fair to her, she did warn me beforehand and suggested a single house so it would have been more of a surprise if it had gone through but said I could try if I wanted and if refused, she would change it to a single house for no extra.

It was your fault then!

Oh yes, definitely my fault. I'll listen to the professionals advice next time. All it has cost me is time though and as I'm not in any rush, it's not a problem.