Planning vs PD - do i stand a chance?

[e17jack]

I live in a typical 1890s terraced victorian house, and am planning a side return kitchen extension. The length of the side return, and therefore the length of extension that would give a flush rear wall to the house, is 6.8m.
I have had some plans drawn up under permitted development showing a 6m extension that leaves a stepped rear facade to the kitchen. The stepped wall compromises the design in many ways. This plan also shows a 3.5m wall along the party wall line with the neighbours. This 6m long, 3.5m high wall is less than 2m from the neighbours kitchen window and side door into garden, and creates a high walled tunnel to their rear lounge window.

I have been told by the architect that my local council (Waltham Forest) are very strict about not allowing extensions greater than 6m, specifically to avoid this tunnel effect on the neighbours side return - however currently they have to allow the 6m extension, even with the 3.5m wall as it falls under PD.
I would like to draw up plans to submit for full planning that show a 6.8m extension with a 2.4m party wall (which would be adequate with sloping roof). My plan would be to argue 3 things:

1 - That it is madness that they will allow the 6m x 3.5m wall, but not give planning to a 6.8m x 2.4m wall which clearly has much less impact on the neighbours.
2 - The stepped rear facade resulting from the 6m limit creates a patchwork, poorly planned appearance to the building that is at odds with the over-riding planning principles of 'high quality design' and 'harmony with the original building.
3 - The affected neighbours windows face North east. They don't get any sunlight at all at any time of year. the 2.4m wall, when rendered and painted white, will in fact provide an increased level of daylight to the neighbours.

I suspect that they will still say no as they don't want to set a precedent. I would be happy to take this to appeal. Do i then stand a chance based on the strong common sense argument?

Sorry - long post! Anyone with any experience of a similar application who can offer advice, i'd be very grateful.

 

[Nakajo]

Common sense carries less weight than you might hope in my experience - but yes, you have a chance - especially if you have the written support of said neighbour.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Who can say, what does the the local plan guidance say that's relevant if anything? Maybe your architect just wants an easy ride?

 

[She17]

Waltham Forest planing dept in my experience is not the most helpful, they will drag the process out and make you jump through hoops. Just saying...

 

[napoleondynamite]

A starting point might be to confirm exactly what you can do without permission. Which is set out here:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/...t-or-other-alteration-of-a-dwellinghouse/made

The maximum depth without any permission is 3 metres. The maximum eaves height (when within 2 metres of the boundary) is 3 metres.

You can apply for an extension up to 6 metres in depth under 'prior approval' but if your neighbour objects (which seems likely) the council may well refuse the application.

So it sounds like your 'fall back' position, i.e. what you could do for certain without planning permission, is a 3m x 3m extension, not a 6m x 3.5m extension.

 

[e17jack]

Thanks for all your responses. Napoleondynamite - Thanks for the link to the full legislation on PD. It is very unlikely that the neighbours will object as they are housing association tenants who don't use their gardens and take very little interest in the state of their property. It seems there is no obligation on me to notify the housing association, the legislation says "The local planning authority must notify each adjoining owner or occupier about the proposed development".
In other words i guess they will just send a letter to the address - and again, it is very unlikely that the neighbours will pass this information on to their landlord (the housing association).

In theory if there are no objections within the 21 days i will then have an option to build the 6m extension and there is nothing anyone can do about it. Once i am in this position i am hoping i can use this as a bargaining chip in my planning app.

i.e. Give me planning for the 6.8m x 2.4m extension or i'll build this 6m x 3.5m extension, and there is nothing you can do about it!

Am i crazy to come up with this plan?! I know this all sounds like i am trying to exploit the system but i just want to build the best possible solution that also respects the neighbours - an extension that would fly through planning in nearly every other borough of London.

 

[Nakajo]

"an extension that would fly through planning in nearly every other borough of London"

Erm, you're talking about London, England, in 2016, right?

 

[napoleondynamite]

If you want to use the 6 metre extension option as a fall back position then yes I would apply for prior approval and see whether you get a positive outcome.

As I said though, the height restriction is 3 metres not 3.5- from the GPDO-

(i)the enlarged part of the dwellinghouse would be within 2 metres of the boundary of the curtilage of the dwellinghouse, and the height of the eaves of the enlarged part would exceed 3 metres;


As per Nakajo's comment, I don't think many councils would as common practice approve a 6.8 metre extension directly alongside the boundary, most would have some concerns re anything beyond 3-4 metres.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

an extension that would fly through planning in nearly every other borough of London.

You're dreaming!

 

[e17jack]

Thanks for that ND - i will revert to my architect with the 3 vs 3.5m question and hopefully put him right...

 

[Supersax]

Thanks for all your responses. Napoleondynamite - Thanks for the link to the full legislation on PD. It is very unlikely that the neighbours will object as they are housing association tenants who don't use their gardens and take very little interest in the state of their property. It seems there is no obligation on me to notify the housing association, the legislation says "The local planning authority must notify each adjoining owner or occupier about the proposed development".
In other words i guess they will just send a letter to the address - and again, it is very unlikely that the neighbours will pass this information on to their landlord (the housing association).

In theory if there are no objections within the 21 days i will then have an option to build the 6m extension and there is nothing anyone can do about it. Once i am in this position i am hoping i can use this as a bargaining chip in my planning app.

i.e. Give me planning for the 6.8m x 2.4m extension or i'll build this 6m x 3.5m extension, and there is nothing you can do about it!

Am i crazy to come up with this plan?! I know this all sounds like i am trying to exploit the system but i just want to build the best possible solution that also respects the neighbours - an extension that would fly through planning in nearly every other borough of London.

Just a couple of things. You are correct that there is no obligation to notify the Housing Association, however if your local authority are like mine (I work for a Planning Dept) then their letter to neighbours will state something along the lines of 'If you are not the owner of this property, please forward this letter to the owner as soon as possible'.

Secondly, you cannot build this extension after the 21 days under Prior Approval if no objections are received. You have to wait for 42 days for the application to expire, or the receipt of the decision notice (whichever comes first) before you can commence. To do otherwise would mean that your extension is unlawful

 

[Nakajo]

Note that the 42 day limit runs from the date on which the LPA originally received notice of the proposed extension.

 

[Supersax]

Yes, that's correct-even if you send it to the wrong office! You will receive an acknowledgement letter from the LPA stating what day they received it-make sure this is correct.

 

[Nakajo]

I know people (lawyers) game the system that way, but I think that's a bit of a low blow.

 

[cjard]

what you could do for certain without planning permission, is a 3m x 3m extension, not a 6m x 3.5m extension.

Or build a 3x3.5, then tack another 3x3.5 onto it later..