Please help - Loft Conversion
- Thread starter ziggy1979
- Start date
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You'll most probably need to put bigger joists in alongside the existing anyway, to take the increased design floor loading. Depending on the layout, it might be possbile to size these to support the roof, thus avoiding the use of steels.
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Do you think getting our builders to install floor joists after removing the ceiling joists would be cheaper than redoing the original ceilings and then doing the loft conversion in the normal way with rsjs etc.? Or do you not think it would make a huge different in cost?
Also, would a Building Control Officer normally advise on whether doing a loft conversion in this manner would be safe and allowed?
Thanks again!
Also, would a Building Control Officer normally advise on whether doing a loft conversion in this manner would be safe and allowed?
Thanks again!
The trick is to leave the existing ceiling joists in, so as to avoid the need to do (too much) damage to the existing ceilings. Generally, that means putting new joists alongside the existing, although there are occasions when running in the opposite direction over the existing joists is called for.
You can leave joists in, run new ones alongside and sling from beams running over the top of the existing using saddle hangers. The important thing to note is that the use of beams does not preclude leaving the existing ceiling and joists in.
A BCO won't generally advise you how to do it: his/her purpose in life - apart from being a pain - is to ensure that whatever you do complies with the myriad of technical requirements in force at the time you undertake the work (or at the time that you obtain your approval, if you make a full plans submission).
You can leave joists in, run new ones alongside and sling from beams running over the top of the existing using saddle hangers. The important thing to note is that the use of beams does not preclude leaving the existing ceiling and joists in.
A BCO won't generally advise you how to do it: his/her purpose in life - apart from being a pain - is to ensure that whatever you do complies with the myriad of technical requirements in force at the time you undertake the work (or at the time that you obtain your approval, if you make a full plans submission).
Oh God ... so BCO's can really be as difficult as I've heard ppl say in the past?
Thanks again for your advice Shytalkz ... the reason i suggested taking out the ceiling joists is because the plasterwork on the existing ceilings is totally shot ... the roof has leaked and damaged large parts of the ceilings and its fallen off in other parts.
My builder suggested knocking them all down, plasterboarding and jointing the edges. Given this i wondered whether there was any (financial) advantage to going the whole way and removing the ceiling joists after we have knocked down the ceilings and replacing them with larger (floor joists).
Also, should we do this, can you see any possible objections from BC?
THanks again!
Thanks again for your advice Shytalkz ... the reason i suggested taking out the ceiling joists is because the plasterwork on the existing ceilings is totally shot ... the roof has leaked and damaged large parts of the ceilings and its fallen off in other parts.
My builder suggested knocking them all down, plasterboarding and jointing the edges. Given this i wondered whether there was any (financial) advantage to going the whole way and removing the ceiling joists after we have knocked down the ceilings and replacing them with larger (floor joists).
Also, should we do this, can you see any possible objections from BC?
THanks again!
Yes. But then some can be extremely helpful. Like any walk of life, there's good and bad, I was merely being flippant
.I can't see any need to do this. Surely the entire ceiling area is not damaged/beyond repair?
No, just an out-loud wondering as to what the hell you are doing.
If you do go that route, bear in mind that the ceiling joists most likely also act as ties to the rafter feet and, if you don't prop the roof structure adequately before ripping them out, you just might find that your previously pitched roof now has a somewhat shallower pitch and your walls an outward lean. This would not a be a good thing to happen...
I find if you keep on the right side of the BCO (this includes not arguing with him much or ignoring his advice) he will have seen hundreds of loft conversions on houses just like yours, and will know some good ways to do it, and may well be willing to discuss them with you. Like the rest of us, they don't all know everything, and depending with age they might be either inexperienced, or behind the times, so it does no harm to check.
If you are using a good local builder, he will probably have done lots as well, so (providing they can agree) are likely to know what to do. It is a good idea to ask the builder if you can meet some of his satisfied customers and look at recent similar conversions. Happy customers are usually willing to show off. See if they have any criticisms or suggestions for you.
Builders often work by eye and experience, without calculations, and this can lead to over-engineered structures, though. This would not be a problem if you didn't have to pay for the materials.
If you are using a good local builder, he will probably have done lots as well, so (providing they can agree) are likely to know what to do. It is a good idea to ask the builder if you can meet some of his satisfied customers and look at recent similar conversions. Happy customers are usually willing to show off. See if they have any criticisms or suggestions for you.
Builders often work by eye and experience, without calculations, and this can lead to over-engineered structures, though. This would not be a problem if you didn't have to pay for the materials.
So can using some SEs, believe me (not me, naturally
).The BCO will want some numbers to prove its structural adequacy, regardless of any rule of thumb approach that may have been taken.
Thanks guys.
I asked my builder (and a plasterer friend) whether it would be cheaper to patch and skim the ceilings but they both reckoned there was so much to remove, patch and then skim that it would almost certainly cost more to do this than knock it all out and put up plasterboard + joint the edges (without skimming afterwards - apparently this is fine?).
Your posts have moved the discussion to my next question ... do you always have to have architect's or SE's drawings and calculations for a loft extension or can you simply rely on the builder satisfying the BCO?
My builder reckons removing the ceilings joists, supporting the roof structure as Shytalkz pointed out and fitting new (floor) joists may not be a quick job, but that it certainly isn't a difficult one. Do you guys agree or can these things seem easier than they really are?
Thanks again!
BTW - with regards to normal extensions, do you know what the going rate is for 2-storey extensions (price/sq m)? Thanks !
I asked my builder (and a plasterer friend) whether it would be cheaper to patch and skim the ceilings but they both reckoned there was so much to remove, patch and then skim that it would almost certainly cost more to do this than knock it all out and put up plasterboard + joint the edges (without skimming afterwards - apparently this is fine?).
Your posts have moved the discussion to my next question ... do you always have to have architect's or SE's drawings and calculations for a loft extension or can you simply rely on the builder satisfying the BCO?
My builder reckons removing the ceilings joists, supporting the roof structure as Shytalkz pointed out and fitting new (floor) joists may not be a quick job, but that it certainly isn't a difficult one. Do you guys agree or can these things seem easier than they really are?
Thanks again!
BTW - with regards to normal extensions, do you know what the going rate is for 2-storey extensions (price/sq m)? Thanks !
taking out the ceiling timbers will tend to make the roof collapse and the walls fall down (this is what ST was alluding to) though if your builder is expert he may be competent to prevent this happening.
look at a few previous jobs where he's done it.
I'd be interested to see the diagrams for shoring the walls or whatever he's going to do.
(this is what ST was alluding to) though if your builder is expert he may be competent to prevent this happening.look at a few previous jobs where he's done it.
I'd be interested to see the diagrams for shoring the walls or whatever he's going to do.
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It was my idea to remove the ceiling joists before redoing the plasterwork, if it was safe and cheaper than rsjs, etc. ... but given what you say it seems awful risky to do this.
Also, any ideas on the cost of 2-storey extensions and whether you should or its advisable to have plans, with calculations, etc. before doing loft?
Thanks again!
Also, any ideas on the cost of 2-storey extensions and whether you should or its advisable to have plans, with calculations, etc. before doing loft?
Thanks again!
Last edited by a moderator:
You don't necessarily need drawings, but you will need someone to do numbers for any structural alteration such as this; and, no the BCO won't rely on the builder's sizing, unless he can get it straight out of the TRADA tables, which he won't be able to, as it's not a standard load arrangement, in that it's going to be supporting the roof.
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