Question regarding Robin test leads

[Dippy]

I have just bought a used Robin KTS1610 for home use. It only has two test lead sets, both with IEC 3-pin mains plugs to connect to the instrument. One set has a UK mains plug for socket testing and the other has three leads with interchangeable probes/croc clips. But the instrument also has sockets for regular 'multimeter' type test probes too.

The manual, which is basic, suggests that for continuity testing I should be using the regulat test probe sockets. However there is a loose errata in the box which suggests that the unit was only supplied with an SL20 test lead set, which I appear to have.

It seems logical to me that I should be able to do all my testing with my test leads which connect to the IEC socket, however I would appreciate it if someone who is familiar with the Robin gear could confirm this.

Also can anyone:
a) Let me know roughly the going rate for calibration service for the KTS1610
b) Suggest any places I can go for calibration in West Berkshire?

 

[ricicle]

You can just use the 3 leads with the IEC plug on and this will perform all the tests that the KTS 1610 will carry out

Ricicle

 

[Dippy]

Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately at least for my unit this is not actually true. I have just tested the unit and I the IEC connector lead would not work for continuity and insulation tests. When I connected my multimeter leads to the other sockets, those tests worked!

Looks like I need to go back to the seller for the missing leads

Any comments on the calibration please? My unit measures 247Vac for my house so it looks like it is out of cal.

 

[ricicle]

Sorry Dippy I was getting mixed up with the tester we have at present.We used to have a KTS1610.It has the little slider on the back doesn't it,one position for IEC the other for normal test leads.The IEC test leads are for testing voltage/EFLI on installations other than socket outlets (the other IEC lead).
Yes so sorry it sounds like some leads are missing

Ricicle

 

[RF Lighting]

Any comments on the calibration please? My unit measures 247Vac for my house so it looks like it is out of cal.

If you have bought the unit new then it will be allready calibrated, and will not require recalibrating for 1 year.

The best place to find out about calibration is your local electrical wholesaler. Many will have a calibration day where the bod comes along to the local branch, and will offer calibration at a reduced rate.

BTW it is perfectly normal to find 247V at a socket outlet.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Hope you didnt pay too much money for your 1610??

FYI. For the KTS 1610 you should gave 3 sets of leads:

IEC socket with a regular 13A plug on the end and
IEC Socket with (Non GS38) fused probes - should be croc clips too
The above are used for RCD tests and loop tests

you should also have a set of 2 leads that have 4mm plugs one end and prods & croc clips the other. These are used for continuity and insulation tests. You access the 4mm sockets by moving the slider at the back of the 1610.

Words of warning re the 1610:

1. As a piece of test equipment it makes avery good door stop.

2. You cannot null the test leads so have to deduct the test lead resistance from continuity measurements.

3. Loop tests will trip any RCD within a 50 mile radius

4. Although they give you that nice slidey door it doesnt stop you from connecting your test prods onto a live circuit while in continuity position. This is a very expensive move and results in a return to Robin/Fluke £120 scenario. (yes I know one should always test for live circuits but hey, this is one expensive fuse!)

5. I have benchmarked my 1610 against my Megger and there is no comparison on the results. Megger is solid results every test and Robin wavers all over the place.

TTC

 

[ban-all-sheds]

If you have bought the unit new then it will be allready calibrated, and will not require recalibrating for 1 year.

I have just bought a used Robin KTS1610

 

[Dippy]

Any comments on the calibration please? My unit measures 247Vac for my house so it looks like it is out of cal.

If you have bought the unit new then it will be allready calibrated, and will not require recalibrating for 1 year.

The best place to find out about calibration is your local electrical wholesaler. Many will have a calibration day where the bod comes along to the local branch, and will offer calibration at a reduced rate.

BTW it is perfectly normal to find 247V at a socket outlet.

Thanks. Aren't we supposed to be on 230Vac now?
I have sent an e-mail to my elect company for confirmation of supply parameters anyway.

 

[Dippy]

Hope you didnt pay too much money for your 1610??

FYI. For the KTS 1610 you should gave 3 sets of leads:

IEC socket with a regular 13A plug on the end and
IEC Socket with (Non GS38) fused probes - should be croc clips too
The above are used for RCD tests and loop tests

you should also have a set of 2 leads that have 4mm plugs one end and prods & croc clips the other. These are used for continuity and insulation tests. You access the 4mm sockets by moving the slider at the back of the 1610.

Words of warning re the 1610:

1. As a piece of test equipment it makes avery good door stop.

2. You cannot null the test leads so have to deduct the test lead resistance from continuity measurements.

3. Loop tests will trip any RCD within a 50 mile radius

4. Although they give you that nice slidey door it doesnt stop you from connecting your test prods onto a live circuit while in continuity position. This is a very expensive move and results in a return to Robin/Fluke £120 scenario. (yes I know one should always test for live circuits but hey, this is one expensive fuse!)

5. I have benchmarked my 1610 against my Megger and there is no comparison on the results. Megger is solid results every test and Robin wavers all over the place.

TTC

Thanks for the advice. Your points are well taken, but as I noted, I only bought it for home use so that I can comply with part P, so I didn't want to spend too much. I have been watching e-bay for a while, and see that the Robin and Fluke units (didn't know about Megger) go for several hundred quid. I saw that the KTS1610 was the cheapest, and I decided that I really don't need the extra functions that the others have.

Eventually I got one for 120 plus postage, which I thought was good although not long after I saw one go for 90 plus postage (such is the way of ebay). For what it does (and taking your comments into account), this seems steep, although it is still a fraction of the new price. I suppose there's enough of a market that the prices are still quite high.

Anyway I'm happy with the unit and was prepared to pay what I did so that I can do my own certs. Plus the seller has now promised to send me the missing test leads.

BTW I don't have any permanent RCDs in my house (and it should do 'cos the previous owner put in an external IP rated socket), but I tested my portable RCD (and proved that it is broken - need to get a new one). I shall wait for the complaints from the rest of Berkshire plus surrounding counties that I tripped all their RCDs too.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Aren't we supposed to be on 230Vac now?

For many years the supply voltage for single-phase supplies in the UK was 240V +/- 6%, giving a possible spread of voltage from 226V to 254 V. For three-phase supplies the voltage was 415 V +/- 6%, the spread being from 390 V to 440V. Most continental voltage levels have been 220/380V.

In 1988 an agreement was reached (CENELEC Harmonisation Document HD472)that voltage levels across Europe should be unified at 230V single phase and 400V three-phase with effect from January 1st, 1995. Those countries with a nominal voltage of 240V (like the UK) were obliged to move to 230V +10% -6%, and those on 220V moved to 230V +6% -10%.

It was proposed that on January 1st, 2003 the tolerance levels would be widened to ±10%, and then that was pushed back to 2005, and then in July 2001 the CENELEC Technical Board decided to continue with the existing tolerances until 2008.

In any event, the European-wide harmonisation is not being done by having common supply voltages, but by requiring manufacturers to make products which operate over a much wider range. Since the present supply voltages in the UK lie within the acceptable spread of values, Supply Companies are not intending to reduce their voltages in the near future. This is hardly surprising, because such action would immediately reduce the energy used by consumers (and the income of the Companies) by more than 8%, although when the system is under heavy load the generating companies happily take advantage of the lower limit.

I only bought it for home use so that I can comply with part P

How is it going to allow you to do that?

I have a horrible feeling that you don't have a very accurate idea of the requirements of Part P....

 

[RF Lighting]

If you have bought the unit new then it will be allready calibrated, and will not require recalibrating for 1 year.

I have just bought a used Robin KTS1610

The key word I used was new.

The OP may have bought the tester 2nd hand for all we know, in which case it may well be out of calibration.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The OP may have bought the tester 2nd hand for all we know, in which case it may well be out of calibration.

Not quite sure why you say "for all we know", when we do know....

I have just bought a used Robin KTS1610

 

[Dippy]

Thanks, that is useful information. I suppose I was thinking that after the agreement the suppliers might actually change their voltages. But I suppose if the EU has simply agreed to set a nominal voltage with tolerances which allow the suppliers to do nothing, then of course that's what they will do! What a total waste of time and money.

My comment about part P referred to meeting the testing requirements of BS7671. I don't have a 250V or 500V source for IR testing, and although I do have an oscilloscope with a digital storage interface which I designed myself, I can imagine it would still be a pain in the arse to use it for RCD testing, not to mention the effort (and danger) of inducing the fault current. Plus there is the issue of calibration and the need to maybe convince an inspector that such a setup is good enough.

So I decided that getting an instrument dedicated for the job would be the best thing.

Is there maybe something else you are referring to that you don't think I understand about Part P?

BTW, in the ads I see on e-bay, the sellers suggest that the new price of some of these installation testers is between 600 and 1000 notes. Is that what you professionals are actually paying? (That's an honest question - I'm not trying to be offensive).

Aren't we supposed to be on 230Vac now?

For many years the supply voltage for single-phase supplies in the UK was 240V +/- 6%, giving a possible spread of voltage from 226V to 254 V. For three-phase supplies the voltage was 415 V +/- 6%, the spread being from 390 V to 440V. Most continental voltage levels have been 220/380V.

In 1988 an agreement was reached (CENELEC Harmonisation Document HD472)that voltage levels across Europe should be unified at 230V single phase and 400V three-phase with effect from January 1st, 1995. Those countries with a nominal voltage of 240V (like the UK) were obliged to move to 230V +10% -6%, and those on 220V moved to 230V +6% -10%.

It was proposed that on January 1st, 2003 the tolerance levels would be widened to ±10%, and then that was pushed back to 2005, and then in July 2001 the CENELEC Technical Board decided to continue with the existing tolerances until 2008.

In any event, the European-wide harmonisation is not being done by having common supply voltages, but by requiring manufacturers to make products which operate over a much wider range. Since the present supply voltages in the UK lie within the acceptable spread of values, Supply Companies are not intending to reduce their voltages in the near future. This is hardly surprising, because such action would immediately reduce the energy used by consumers (and the income of the Companies) by more than 8%, although when the system is under heavy load the generating companies happily take advantage of the lower limit.

I only bought it for home use so that I can comply with part P

How is it going to allow you to do that?

I have a horrible feeling that you don't have a very accurate idea of the requirements of Part P....

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Thanks, that is useful information. I suppose I was thinking that after the agreement the suppliers might actually change their voltages. But I suppose if the EU has simply agreed to set a nominal voltage with tolerances which allow the suppliers to do nothing, then of course that's what they will do! What a total waste of time and money.

Not really, as it means that manufacturers make their products to work on a wide range of voltages.

My comment about part P referred to meeting the testing requirements of BS7671.

As excellent an idea it is for you to test your work, Part P does not require you to work to BS 7671. In fact, it does not mandate any testing at all...

I don't have a 250V or 500V source for IR testing, and although I do have an oscilloscope with a digital storage interface which I designed myself, I can imagine it would still be a pain in the a**e to use it for RCD testing, not to mention the effort (and danger) of inducing the fault current.

Ha! - you should read the thread on Screwfix from the guy using a scope to test his RCD...

Plus there is the issue of calibration and the need to maybe convince an inspector that such a setup is good enough.

Well actually there's a lot more - even with a calibrated instrument, you can't self-certify compliance with the Building Regs, so with anything notifiable you'll still have to notify LABC in advance and still pay their fee.

And without qualifications, you'll struggle to get them to accept your EICs, but even if they do, you'll still have to notify them in advance and still have to pay their fee....

Is there maybe something else you are referring to that you don't think I understand about Part P?

Apologies if I've misunderstood, but I thought you were saying that ownership of this tester would mean you no longer have the hassle and cost of notifying LABC in advance.

BTW, in the ads I see on e-bay, the sellers suggest that the new price of some of these installation testers is between 600 and 1000 notes. Is that what you professionals are actually paying? (That's an honest question - I'm not trying to be offensive).

No offence taken (but then I'm not a professional ), but yes, that's what they cost.

 

[Dippy]

Thanks again. Please allow me to clarify.

I do understand the notification requirements of part P, and so far I do not plan to do any notifiable work. However I do plan to have an extension built (and will doing non-notifiable replacing and extending electrical work as part of this) and therefore I will have LABC inspection. My interest in all this is therefore twofold:
1) The inspector might start asking about the elecrical work that I have done.
2) I am looking to the future when I might sell the house and so what to be covered against problems.

Part P may not enforce BS7671, but it does enforce the competency requirements. Now under the current incomplete introduction of Part P, registered electricians probably get considered automatically competent. But the promised self-certification scheme for DIYers has not yet materialised, so people like me will have to prove our own competence. Now I have previously worked with the IET on the development of the competency scheme for functional safety, and we always held that competent persons will compy with all relevant standards (in that case IEC16508). Therefore it is not only sensible for me to work to BS7671 for reasons of safety, but also in order to maintain my claim to competency (please note that I am qualified - I am a chartered electrical engineer).