Reasonable quote for new alarm?

[mdf290]

Non monitored - non urn - non Police Response systems alarms still get a Police response just the same as a monitored system if there is a report of someone actually seen on the property or other evidence ie a light sitched on etc,
As in one case I know personally a non approved non Police Response system resulted in two miscreants being arrested as they were seen in the back garden of the property when the alarm went off and the neighbour rang 999 and reported them.

 

[alumni]

Non monitored - non urn - non Police Response systems alarms still get a Police response just the same as a monitored system if there is a report of someone actually seen on the property or other evidence ie a light sitched on etc,
As in one case I know personally a non approved non Police Response system resulted in two miscreants being arrested as they were seen in the back garden of the property when the alarm went off and the neighbour rang 999 and reported them.

Nobody is saying otherwise.

 

[IanGillan]

Non monitored - non urn - non Police Response systems alarms still get a Police response just the same as a monitored system if there is a report of someone actually seen on the property or other evidence ie a light sitched on etc,
As in one case I know personally a non approved non Police Response system resulted in two miscreants being arrested as they were seen in the back garden of the property when the alarm went off and the neighbour rang 999 and reported them.

Actually your half right here.
This goes for the Fire Services too.
If "Persons" are reported from a neighbour or the householder they are OBLIGED to class it as a priority "shout".
A light being on is not one of the criteria. There has to be a confirmed physical presence. Think about it, if a PIR floodlight activated would that mean there is an intruder, the same as a timed inside light if the occupants are away for a while.
Your argument here is just that, an argument. A £99.00 system will not have sequential conformation like for example a second zone reported, voice verification ( not the other cheap stuff where an operator asks how you are) but voice and movement through different zones and of course visual conformation of a robbery in progress.

I also find your story of an alarm going off when the "miscreants" were still in the garden. I am sure many children or indeed youths could be classed as "persons behaving badly" when a football or tennis ball has come over the boundary wall. Would you call retrieving a ball breaking the law? Of course they may well have been up to no good, but how and why did the alarm activate in the first place if they were only seen in the garden?
What actually happened?
But as above "persons" have to be reported for a non communicating system hence you`re not allowed to have a cheaper system call 999/911. It has to go through a Alarm Receiving Centre for filtering and verification. Then and only then is it reported as persons on site and a response given.

How is the new G2 system coming along? Not seen it in any wholesalers, nor in PSI or any other trade literature.

 

[mdf290]

Actually your half right here.
A light being on is not one of the criteria. There has to be a confirmed physical presence. Think about it, if a PIR floodlight activated would that mean there is an intruder, the same as a timed inside light if the occupants are away for a while.
Your argument here is just that, an argument.

What actually happened?
But as above "persons" have to be reported for a non communicating

This is Greater Manchester Police's Alarm response Policy on non monitored alarms.

'Audible only alarms (Type B alarms)

If a thief sets off the alarm - or you press a personal attack button – the alarm instantly rings.

This system then relies on someone hearing the noise and calling the police.
Due to the number of false alarms, there needs to be additional information that a burglary is taking place to get police attendance. This could be the sound of breaking glass, seeing a suspicious person or an unusual light. We do not rely just on the alarm system itself.'

As you can see there is scope for other factors other than physical presence.

With a 6400 system you can listen in to your home via the panels inbuilt microphone using your mobile phone.

In this case if your alarm phoned your mobile you could then ring the property back and if you then heard sounds or voices within your home you could report this to the Police who would then consider it as above.




In relation to your other comment.

Obviously the miscreants had exited the property through the Pation door that was breached when the police arrived the patio door had been entered via breaking.

 

[IanGillan]

Again you`re half right. A neighbour can alert with persons reported. However the home owner cannot use dial in and remote listening. Reason being it could be made up. You seem to understand the principle not the practise. The system you mention has abort features does it? So user error could not be filtered out could it.
Hence the Police will not attend on this type of verification.
There was one exception where a monitored system sent sigs to the ARC and the client. He turned on his laptop and watched the miscreants then phoned the station and told them what room they were in. But note it was a monitored system not a dial in.

As to your other it was not clear as to if a break in had yet occurred or a seismic detector had been triggered. Nasty things unless well set up and grouped off to avoid false confirmed signals.

I suggest you reread the GMP ACPO document a little closer.

 

[mdf290]

Again you`re half right. A neighbour can alert with persons reported. However the home owner cannot use dial in and remote listening. Reason being it could be made up..

Doesn't make sense , a neighbour could equally make up that someone was on site when they weren't if you asked him to...

At the end of the day the Police are not keyholders or employees of alarm companies and they will or will not turn up depending on their current priorities.

I'm sure if I had an alarm and I could listen in to my home and hear voices when it should be empty and my alarm had activated I would be pretty unhappy if the police said they did not believe me and when I returned home the house was indeed burgled.
I can see a letter of Complaint straight on the Chief Constables desk.

 

[IanGillan]

You miss the point, a person in the near vicinity can be traced and spoken to, someone at a remote location is not going to meet the Police on site and that is what they require.
Ever seen a URN application form? Seen the Risk Assessment you have to fill in? The details needed before they even enter the property?

So if you dialled in and listened to a robbery in progress they would not respond, they would get you to ask a neighbour to check and then call.
Also as I asked does this system have an abort facility? Does it call back and say the code has been entered if someone had strayed off the entry route but has entered the code/swiped a fob ( Can it do fobs?).

I also note from the manual for the one you mention that if you do stray from a entry route during entry nothing will happen "A device set to burglar will not trigger an alarm
during entry or exit delay periods."
Can you clarify that during entry you can move about the premises and until the timer has expired the system will not go into alarm?
So a typical door "jimmied" will give a certain amount of time before it goes off and dials out. Perhaps enabling the phone line to be cut?

I do agree it would be an unhappy event to find as you mention, but as the ACPO rules state a person must be on or near the site to report miscreants on the premises. Not from a remote position, unless of course it is a confirmed signal to a Alarm Receiving Centre.
There are more rules in the pipeline too, but these are still at the initial stages with CENLEC and ACPO. Which will probably turn the industry inside out again.

 

[mdf290]

There are more rules in the pipeline too, but these are still at the initial stages with CENLEC and ACPO. Which will probably turn the industry inside out again.

More rules will simply mean alarms price themselves out of the domestic market.

£2000 for some installs and a monthly fee is already asking too much of domestic customers.

If more hoops have to be jumped through for Police Response then people may simply decide its not worth bothering with but instead do what they should have been doing all along.

Making good relationships with their neighbours and watching out for each other.

I am pretty sure the new rules coming along will make all non dual signalling systems inelligible for Police response and will suddenly either give the alarm business lots of work to do replacing systems so homeowners can conform or they will have to cancel a load of monitoring contracts and lose money.

 

[IanGillan]

I disagree with some if not all of that. I doubt they will stop single path, there are thousands out there that conform to the relevant standards at the time of install and if there are no issues then they can stay that way.
Dual path is now getting cheaper and cheaper with the new technologies available. You may be getting confused with "dual conformation", which almost all now have anyway as it was easy to do with the majority of panels.
Your figures are way off unless we are talking large panels with a hell of a lot of peripherals.
Some companies offer a special rate for an upgrade and work it over the contracts lifetime, so the cost is negligible. In fact some do it for free as it enables a remote interrogation of the system for minor faults or alterations without the need for a visit. Although there are still physical inspections and servicing.
I would be wary of the nationals or one in particular as they tie you in knots with contracts and ownership of the goods. That is why you should always get 3 quotes and talk to neighbours ( Which as you mention should be done anyway as it is your community and quite rightly should look out for each other).
You fail to mention the insurers views on this and some insist on items to be fitted. I have fitted equipment the householders did not want but they were not going to be insured otherwise, but that is another kettle of fish.
The industry knows the limitations of customers at the moment and has adjusted accordingly but not lowered standards. Yes there are some bad eggs out there, but that goes for any business unfortunately. The sooner legislation is brought in and engineers are licensed as in Ireland the better.

 

[bernardgreen]

Case in point.

The family have spent somewhere between 8 and 10 thousand pounds on new TVs and home cinema equipment and yet are begrugding paying to have a sensible alarm system installed. Sensible as in one of those that the insurance company are asking before they will extend cover onto the new equipment.

 

[alumni]

There are more rules in the pipeline too, but these are still at the initial stages with CENLEC and ACPO. Which will probably turn the industry inside out again.

More rules will simply mean alarms price themselves out of the domestic market.

£2000 for some installs and a monthly fee is already asking too much of domestic customers.

If more hoops have to be jumped through for Police Response then people may simply decide its not worth bothering with but instead do what they should have been doing all along.

Making good relationships with their neighbours and watching out for each other.

I am pretty sure the new rules coming along will make all non dual signalling systems inelligible for Police response and will suddenly either give the alarm business lots of work to do replacing systems so homeowners can conform or they will have to cancel a load of monitoring contracts and lose money.

Nothing more than your usual puff and bluster and usual side swipe at companies by quoting a silly figure (£2k is your latest, inflation seems to have bumped it up from £1500).

Yaleguy, if you ain't happy with ACPO, have a chat with them. I'm sure if you feel you have valid points they'll embrace them.

Otherwise, please stop talking out of your hole.

 

[alumni]

The sooner legislation is brought in and engineers are licensed as in Ireland the better.

The concept of which is admirable and yes, i agree. However, it seems it ain't quite what people were led to believe, which is somewhat unfortunate.

 

[mdf290]

Nothing more than your usual puff and bluster and usual side swipe at companies by quoting a silly figure (£2k is your latest, inflation seems to have bumped it up from £1500).

if you ain't happy with ACPO, have a chat with them. I'm sure if you feel you have valid points they'll embrace them.

Otherwise, please stop talking out of your hole.

Pricewise I only report what my customers have told me they have been given as alternative quotes. Unless they are lying I can only report as I find. I am not in the business of messing people about by asking them to quote jobs for me I have no intention of following through.

I am happy with ACPO it's their perogative how they want to respond to alarms.. not my remit to tell them what to do.

Do you ever answer the topic or do you always attack the man?

 

[alumni]

Pricewise I only report what my customers have told me they have been given as alternative quotes. Unless they are lying I can only report as I find. I am not in the business of messing people about by asking them to quote jobs for me I have no intention of following through.

I am happy with ACPO it's their perogative how they want to respond to alarms.. not my remit to tell them what to do.

Do you ever answer the topic or do you always attack the man?

Keep your eye on the Keybury vans that pass your house regularly then.
Plastered all over them with NSI Gold and the price of
£495. all in.
Somewhat different to what you keep trying to push.

 

[mdf290]

Pricewise I only report what my customers have told me they have been given as alternative quotes. Unless they are lying I can only report as I find. I am not in the business of messing people about by asking them to quote jobs for me I have no intention of following through.

I am happy with ACPO it's their perogative how they want to respond to alarms.. not my remit to tell them what to do.

Do you ever answer the topic or do you always attack the man?

Keep your eye on the Keybury vans that pass your house regularly then.
Plastered all over them with NSI Gold and the price of
£495. all in.
Somewhat different to what you keep trying to push.

Hmmm even cheaper than that £425 inc vat at present but thats for ONE door contact and TWO pir sensors.

That would not even cover a proper risk assesment for a one bedroom flat.

Not only that but they are breaking the law advertising a GUARANTEED Police response..

tsk tsk tsk..nothing to do with you I hope.

Went to a house this week needing 6 x PIRs and 3 x door contacts according to my risk assesment...so that would bump the Keybury price up to what?

Four extra pir's and two extra door contacts , throw in the speechdialler panel too instead of the cheap as chips one originally supplied??

panel upgrade plus £60 . . four PIR plus £200 two door contacts plus £60 so thats 320 plus vat and some extra fitting labour say another £100 so £420 plus vat = £504 plus the original £425 = £929 for a realistic quote.

Or they could just throw in the cheap panel with two pir's and one dc..