RECENT C & G 2382 question

[Paul_C]

Do the regulations tell you that where PME conditions apply the main bonding conductor should be determined after consultation with the supply undertaking AND NOTHING ELSE?

Yes or no?

No. But they do require consultation with the supply undertaking, which is what the answer in option D says, so answer D is not incorrect.

Multiple choice exams like that do not have more than one correct answer to each question. That's not how they work, and you really ought to know that.

Yes, such exams should not have more than one correct answer to each question. That's the whole point of the original query, because this one clearly does have more than one correct answer.

Who's rejected it as wrong?

You have.

It is a multiple choice question, with 3 wrong answers and one right one. That's how they work.

That is how they should work if the instructions for the exam state that one, and only one, option must be selected as the correct answer.

And that's just why this question and its answers are poor, because there are not three wrong answers out of the four given.

By selecting D as the right answer you are automatically rejecting A. B and C as incorrect. That's how it works.

That's how it should work if of the four answers provided one is clearly correct and the others are clearly wrong. But that's not the case with this example.

That's not possible because the multiple choice question does not work like that.

So of the four options provided, one should be correct and three should be incorrect. Not two correct answers from which you have to deduce which answer is expected.

Doesn't alter the fact that answer D is still correct.

Do the regulations tell you that where PME conditions apply the main bonding conductor should be determined after consultation with the supply undertaking AND NOTHING ELSE?

No. But answer D doesn't say that the conductor size should be determined after consulting the supply underaking, AND NOTHING ELSE. If it did, then answer D would clearly be incorrect.

But BS7671 does require such consultation. You've just said so - It's in the note with table 54.8. Unless you still want to try and argue that just because BS7671 does not use those two precise words that they somehow don't count.

I don't want to argue that at all.

Read the problem through four times, with each of the possible options in turn.

Where PME conditions apply the main bonding conductor should be - Half the c.s.a of the earth conductor to Table 54.8

True or false?

Where PME conditions apply the main bonding conductor should be - Selected in accordance with the supply neutral to Table 54.8

True or false?

Where PME conditions apply the main bonding conductor should be - Determined after consultation with the consumer

True or false?

Where PME conditions apply the main bonding conductor should be - Determined after consultation with the supply undertaking.

True or false?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

No. But they do require consultation with the supply undertaking, which is what the answer in option D says, so answer D is not incorrect.

"No" is the crucial part. Since D doesn't encompass anything apart from the consultation it can't be the right answer.

Yes, such exams should not have more than one correct answer to each question. That's the whole point of the original query, because this one clearly does have more than one correct answer.

It clearly does not, and you now recognise that because you now recognise that D is wrong.

That is how they should work if the instructions for the exam state that one, and only one, option must be selected as the correct answer.

I think you'll find they do.

Do the regulations tell you that where PME conditions apply the main bonding conductor should be determined after consultation with the supply undertaking AND NOTHING ELSE?

No. But answer D doesn't say that the conductor size should be determined after consulting the supply underaking, AND NOTHING ELSE.

But it does say that.

D. Determined after consultation with the supply undertaking.

Nothing else, just "after consultation with the supply undertaking".

i.e. D does say say that the conductor size should be determined after consulting the supply undertaking, AND NOTHING ELSE.

If it did, then answer D would clearly be incorrect.

So it'll clearly be incorrect then.

Read the problem through four times, with each of the possible options in turn.

Where PME conditions apply the main bonding conductor should be - Half the c.s.a of the earth conductor to Table 54.8

True or false?

Where PME conditions apply the main bonding conductor should be - Selected in accordance with the supply neutral to Table 54.8

True or false?

Where PME conditions apply the main bonding conductor should be - Determined after consultation with the consumer

True or false?

Where PME conditions apply the main bonding conductor should be - Determined after consultation with the supply undertaking.

True or false?

False.

True.

False.

False.

 

[ebee]

Ooh Dear what the heck have I started?

I have had a rethink and am minded to flip a bit.

Sorry but it's Bans fault.
He put the case that the note is in fact an integral part of the table as opposed to a mere attachment/side issue to it and I'm finding it difficult to reject that idea entirely. Until his meddling I had always considered the note not to be actually part of the table.



That does not mean answer D is incorrect , it is indeed correct but it would not be complete and therefore not the correctest answer if the note is part of the table.

If we have a process that require action A/ & Action B/ but not action C/ to succeed & whilst action C/ would not prevent the process then we might have a question such as :-

For the process to succeed we require

1/ Action A

2/ Action B

3/ Actions A & B

4/ Actions A & C

5/ Actions B & C

6/ Action C

7/ Actions A, B & C

then whilst answers 1/, 2/ & 3/ are all correct statements only answer 3/ would be regarded as the correct answer.

In any event I think the debate on here etc proves the C & G question to be badly worded

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

We've just been talking about the very note in table 54.8 which requires it.

I noticed that

And what does that note say?

I think we have both read the contents of that section.

The words 'require', 'consultation' and 'supply undertaking' do not appear in the table.

However, just a mere two lines above the table the words 'where PME conditions apply the main protective bonding conductor shall be selected in accordance with the neutral conductor of the supply and table 54.8' do appear.

That order of words looks remarkably like the question and answer B rolled into one

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

Ooh Dear what the heck have I started?

I have had a rethink and am minded to flip a bit.

Untitled

• mikhailfaradayski
• 7 Apr 2011
• 1

Sorry but it's Bans fault.
He put the case that the note is in fact an integral part of the table as opposed to a mere attachment/side issue to it and I'm finding it difficult to reject that idea entirely. Until his meddling I had always considered the note not to be actually part of the table.

Its just a shame you didn't pick up what was written by Dingbat, wed 30 mar, 8.51pm. The answer was right there.

In any event I think the debate on here etc proves the C & G question to be badly worded

It proves something about the ability to read and write of some people, but the wording is not poor. Some might go as far as to say that it was quite a smart selection of words

 

[ebee]

hey I only said I'm "Minded" to flip a bit I did not say I had done yet so hold fire.

 

[Robgers]

hey I only said I'm "Minded" to flip a bit I did not say I had done yet so hold fire.

A possible merger here?

A new star is born.

ban-all-ebees

 

[Paul_C]

No. But they do require consultation with the supply undertaking, which is what the answer in option D says, so answer D is not incorrect.

"No" is the crucial part. Since D doesn't encompass anything apart from the consultation it can't be the right answer.

It encompasses one thing which needs to be done in order to determine the size. It may not be a complete answer, and it may not be the only correct answer, but it is still a correct answer.

It clearly does not, and you now recognise that because you now recognise that D is wrong.

I recognize no such thing. I recognize that D alone does not lead you to correct conductor size, unless the supply undertaking specifies one. But it cannot possibly be a wrong answer when it encompasses something which needs to be done in order to ascertain the required conductor size.

No. But answer D doesn't say that the conductor size should be determined after consulting the supply undertaking, AND NOTHING ELSE.

But it does say that.

D. Determined after consultation with the supply undertaking.

Nothing else, just "after consultation with the supply undertaking".

i.e. D does say say that the conductor size should be determined after consulting the supply undertaking, AND NOTHING ELSE.

What I meant was that answer D does not say that size shall be determined only by consultation with the supply undertaking. The fact that the answer doesn't go into detail as to what the next step happens to be if the supply undertaking does not have any specific requirement does not make it a wrong answer, just an incomplete one.

False.

True.

False.

False.

So you do not believe that the conductor size needs to be determined after consulting the supply undertaking to see if the latter has any special requirements?

For the process to succeed we require

1/ Action A
2/ Action B
3/ Actions A & B
4/ Actions A & C
5/ Actions B & C
6/ Action C
7/ Actions A, B & C

then whilst answers 1/, 2/ & 3/ are all correct statements only answer 3/ would be regarded as the correct answer.

That's an interesting point. If the question had a fifth option, E, which said "Both B and D" then the single answer required would be clear.

In any event I think the debate on here etc proves the C & G question to be badly worded

Definitely.

I think we have both read the contents of that section.

The words 'require', 'consultation' and 'supply undertaking' do not appear in the table.

Not as such, but the note says that the supplier might have overriding requirements for the size. So how can you know without asking?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It encompasses one thing which needs to be done in order to determine the size. It may not be a complete answer, and it may not be the only correct answer, but it is still a correct answer.

You can only have one correct answer - you know that.

D does not tell you to do all of the steps that may be necessary, therefore D will not necessarily get you the information that you need. You know that.

Therefore D can't be the correct answer, as a correct answer cannot be one which doesn't work. You know that.

B does tell you to do all of the steps that may be necessary therefore B will get you the information that you need. You know that.

Therefore B is the right answer. You know that.

It clearly does not, and you now recognise that because you now recognise that D is wrong.

I recognize no such thing. I recognize that D alone does not lead you to correct conductor size, unless the supply undertaking specifies one. But it cannot possibly be a wrong answer when it encompasses something which needs to be done in order to ascertain the required conductor size.

It doesn't encompass everything, therefore the procedure won't produce the results you need therefore it's not the right procedure therefore the answer is wrong.

What I meant was that answer D does not say that size shall be determined only by consultation with the supply undertaking. The fact that the answer doesn't go into detail as to what the next step happens to be if the supply undertaking does not have any specific requirement does not make it a wrong answer, just an incomplete one.

If it does not describe the complete process needed then following it will not produce the results needed, therefore it's the wrong thing to do.

So you do not believe that the conductor size needs to be determined after consulting the supply undertaking to see if the latter has any special requirements?

I'm not going to waste my time going round and round this loop over and over again.

You read it wrongly, and you got the answer wrong.

The more you wriggle and twist and repeat the same old nonsense that not doing all of the steps required is right the bigger and bigger **** you look.

You got it wrong, so just give up.

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

hey I only said I'm "Minded" to flip a bit I did not say I had done yet so hold fire.

Fair enough, maybe the penny will finally hit the floor after another 6 or 7 pages. Maybe by that time sheddy will be in a full on multicolured, large fonted cut/paste frenzy.

Resistance is futile

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

--//-- schnipp --//--
(far too tedious to bother with)

I think we have both read the contents of that section.

The words 'require', 'consultation' and 'supply undertaking' do not appear in the table.

Not as such,

Not at all

but the note says that the supplier might have overriding requirements for the size.

indeed it does, but it does not say 'require consultation with the supply undertaking' -which is the point I was responding to when you wrote

Does BS7671 require consultation with the supply undertaking in order to decide the size of the conductor?

No, it doesn't

How do you figure that? We've just been talking about the very note in table 54.8 which requires it.

So how can you know without asking?

Maybe its something to do with celestial alignment?

The answer is B

 

[dingbat]

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