renew electrics for water (well/jet) pump

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I have attached photo of electrical setup..it has been like this with no problems for many many years. The (black) feed coming in to the pump house to the LH switch which can be seen is direct from the meter..a separate meter to the main house. The meter was renewed 2 years ago.

The pump/pressure tank is located in a concrete block pump house. When replacing the jet pump recently I noticed the RH rectangular "switch" is quite rusty on the back plate and I think I should replace it. My problem is that it is so old I cannot find out exactly what it is although it was made by MEM. I assume it an old isolator switch?

The white 3-core cable goes to a pressure switch which switches the pump on and off according to the pressure in the tank. The pump is 0.75 kw/1HP and so say draws 5.5 amps.

It all works fine and we have never had any problem with the electrics to the pump house but I would like to replace the RH switch in the photo given its condition and also install a separate socket fed from the LH switch which can be used for a thermostat controlled tube heater and/or a light or power tool if needs be. I need to be able to have that new socket "live" when the second/RH "isolator" switch is off as I want to be able to switch off the (drained) pump if I am away for any long period in Winter whilst still leaving the 60w greenhouse-heater on.

The only other thing I would add is that though the pump etc is enclosed and weather proof it can get quite damp in there with condensation on the metal parts/tank/pump given the (low) temperature of the ground water and low cloud in Winter (1200 ft up)

I would be grateful for any suggestions
P1030511.JPG
/schematic diagrams/suitable parts. Thank you for reading.
 
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I don't think that anyone here has X-Ray eyes. To be able to advise you properly you need to take the front cover off both devices and take a photo.

Disconnect the power at the house end first!

I'm guessing that the left hand is an isolator with a fuse in it. The right hand being another isolator - which should not be necessary.

So, take a pic and can advise better.

PS not a problem if its rusty. So long as it works.
Found this in a garden outhouse recently -and it was still working!View media item 18506
 
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I'd swap out the left hand unit for a Small enclosure / Garage consumer unit with two or three MCBs. This would provide more localised MCBs for the pump and also the Heater which could be wired straight into it without a Socket, unless you want the socket for something else too? Is there RCD protection in the house and how far is the run? How large is the Black SWA (looks about 6mm but hard to tell), it is SWA isn't it?
 
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>TTC..thanks..yes you're quite right about the photo..apologies! Here is one of the rectangular MEM "switch" taken earlier this Summer when I was working on the pump...the power was off at the meter and the first (LH) switch!! I had disconnected the blue N wire.

As you may be able to discern the switch has "Reset" on the end of the switch itself and underneath is the word "Heater"(?
IMG_20180713_143322.jpg
?).
This "kit" was in place when we bought the house thirty odd years ago and as I said it has worked without any problems all that time. The only change is that the (dedicated) meter was replaced free, presumably due to its age, relatively recently.

Later I'll go take a picture of the LH switch with cover off too...and post it here.
 
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>chivers67..posted my first reply before I saw your post. Yes food for thought..thanks.

re your questions ..I had always assumed it was SWA. I believe the original job was done by a qualified electrician but I'd guess it was done at least 35 years ago, maybe more. I have no way of knowing for sure when/who did the job. I will try to check that the cable is SWA and measure the cable diameter later.

The well itself is shared between us and a neighbour and is about 100m away from us although the adjacent well pump house is ours alone. The feed cable (SWA?) comes a distance of some 20 metres and our (new) pump-house meter is mounted on an outer wall of the neighbour's property alongside their own house meter in the same plastic enclosure (the MPAN is obviously different).

The neighbour's electrics were completely re-done by a professional electrician two years ago and as part of that process their (only) meter was also re-sited and renewed at the same time as our pump-house meter was. They were both sited side by side before that but in the way of planned house renovations where they were originally sited. I will go check /ask the neighbour what RCD protection is linked to the new system though I had assumed (I know.. I know) that as all had been redone professionally and recently it would be all up to the proper specification/regs.

I would like a separate socket to be able to use an air-compressor for the pressure tank and or a power tool or inspection lamp albeit only very occasionally.
 
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IMG_20180904_161655.jpg
IMG_20180904_162452.jpg
IMG_20180904_145543.jpg
Been very busy but I found time today to take a closer look at the setup down at the pump-house and have uploaded a few pics. The cable in to the grey MEM box in the first post is, as I think can be seen, 2-core SWA (with the armour being used as the CPC?).

I have also added a pic of the isolator switch at the new (dedicated) meter. I know Proteus make RCD switches but this isn't one is it...anyone??
http://proteusswitchgear.com/index.php/100-amp-1-pole-neutral-electricity-meter-isolator-switch.html


Taylortc guessed correctly at the outset and there are 2 fuse ways in that box ..but currently only one fuse holder (15A). Looks like the second way has been used previously at some time and the wires just snipped off (and the fuse removed?)..that wasn't me! All pretty archaic but it has worked with no problems for 30 odd years!

I think I am going to ask an electrician for a quote to modernise this set-up as Chivers67 suggested but I have to leave here pretty soon and would like to do a safe (but temporary) job of providing for running a thermostat controlled (frost protection) 60-watt greenhouse heater.

Ideally I'd use a new double socket for this purpose the second socket being available for the occasional inspection lamp or use of small power tool e.g. 650w drill.
If I can source a fuse holder for the second way in the MEM box might connecting it to a latching RCD socket be appropriate (given the possibility of power cuts)? I will test the connections in that 2nd way with a meter first as I am suspicious of why the fuse holder was removed
 
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thanks sheds..yes I absolutely agree..the earthing does look flaky...which is why I have decided to have it all re-done professionally..probably in January. However, the close-up you show is the N wire in the second (rectangular) isolating switch that I had removed before taking the shot..the wire is now securely connected back in place and pump and pressure tank are working fine.

I don't know why whoever put this lot in 35 yrs plus ago used a second isolator switch like this in the line to the pump ..as Taylortc said in his first post it seems a bit unnecessary? However, I am not going to remove it now and I just wanted confirmation really that the left-hand (fused) box could be safely used to run a socket pro tem ..IF.. i can find a fuse holder that fits (probably with a 15A or even a 10A fuse wire). I thought a (latched) RCD socket might be a safer option than a standard one in the circumstances..and it can be re-used elsewhere when I have the permanent fix done.
 
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That cable needs reglanding and fitted with a proper Banjo plus Earth Strap, I take it it's pretty tight and doesn't spin as it pretty much looks rusted on?

Have you a picture of that Cable at the Meter end?
 
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thanks for the advice chivers..I have read a round a little and see what you mean (I think!) re surface area and adequate earthing e.g.
https://talk.electricianforum.co.uk/topic/31889-swa-earthing/. However, I won't be doing the job, as I have said. Nonetheless I'll make sure I mention to whoever gets the job that they look to that aspect..especially if they don't mention it!

Re the cable at the Meter end..no I don't have a photo of that..in fact there's very little to see as far as I remember it's all so neatly done (but what lurks behind?)...I don't remember seeing the meter end of the SWA ..and that's a bit of a concern. I'll take a pic of meter installation tomorrow but I don't think it'll shed much light on that matter.

Originally, and for 31 of the 33 years we've lived here, the meter for our pump-house was on an inside wall in the neighbours house..next to their own house meter. Two years ago new owners wanted to remodel the house and duly organised for new meters to be installed on the outside wall of their house. I was not here (quite common) at the time it was done. I know they employed a professional electrician to do quite a lot of work but I had assumed the power co. had installed the meter itself. I don't know the detail of how this was all achieved..and I don't think the owner will be able to tell me details (he may ..I'll ask) but his electrician will quite probably have an idea. I'll probably ask him to do my work anyways.
I'm not really sure that given the rather odd setup that I can do much to change the situation at the meter or around the meter. Whatever's done for safety will I think have to be done accepting the existing setup at the meter box..though as I think you hint not knowing exactly how the SWA is meshed in with the new meter electrics is a bit of a concern. As I said I don't remember seeing the meter end of the SWA..though I have to say I wasn't looking for it specifically (as I probably should!).

If I can find a fuse holder (I think I have on fleabay) do you reckon I'll be ok for a few months running a small heater off that fused box with a latched RCD socket? I won't be around much. Then in the new year I'll get a sparks in.

Hopefully I'll be ok with the 2 core SWA as changing it all to 3 core would be a nightmare.

Assuming the 2 core will be adequate how much (£) do you reckon to do a decent job to modern standards..ball-park figure?
 
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I don't know why whoever put this lot in 35 yrs plus ago used a second isolator switch like this in the line to the pump ..as Taylortc said in his first post it seems a bit unnecessary?
The LH one has 2 final circuits - maybe they wanted a way to isolate the pump without turning everything off, especially if the other circuit was for lights/tools needed.
 
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good thinking Batman!..spot on I think!!..
..and I want to re-create that possibility ..leaving the (newly wired in) thermostatically controlled heater ON while the pump is off (& even drained when I am away for any length of time ..say over a week..in deep Winter).

The 60 watt heater I deem still necessary, even when pump and pressure tank are drained, when ambient temperature is around 0C or below as the kit is too expensive to take chances with. For a minimal electricity bill over the Winter (mainly Jan-Feb..and last year March too) it keeps the edge off that relatively small "pump-house" space of c. 1.8m x 1.3m x 1.3m.
 
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>TTC..thanks..yes you're quite right about the photo..apologies! Here is one of the rectangular MEM "switch" taken earlier this Summer when I was working on the pump...the power was off at the meter and the first (LH) switch!! I had disconnected the blue N wire.

As you may be able to discern the switch has "Reset" on the end of the switch itself and underneath is the word "Heater"(? View attachment 146327 ?).
This "kit" was in place when we bought the house thirty odd years ago and as I said it has worked without any problems all that time. The only change is that the (dedicated) meter was replaced free, presumably due to its age, relatively recently.

Later I'll go take a picture of the LH switch with cover off too...and post it here.
This is a trip rather than an isolator but I can't remember whether it's an overcurrent or RCD device. Last one I saw was a rip out pre 1994
 
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many thanks Sunray.. makes sense..with the "reset" marking clearly visible on the end of the switch "lever" and all..maybe someone else knows? Did you also see on the photo in post #4 that I uploaded that it says "heater" below the switch itself?

whatever it is ..it has been there since we bought the place in 1985..that I can say..well almost 100% - despite memory fading with old age!.
 

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