Replacement Windows - what's the point?

[Bargain Bucket]

Many of our UPVC windows are now 27 years old and getting tired so I'm looking to replace them (I know I could just replace glass, seals, hinges etc but the frames themselves look really shabby now so I would like to replace the whole lot). The glass is old tech and of course new glass has much better insulation properties. But what's the point of having glass that insulates so well if you have a hole in the frame to provide ventilation? Surely the ventilation hole completely negates all the good work that the new super insulating glass does in keeping a room warm? Or am I missing something here?

 

[johnny2007]

It's all to do with being "GREEN".
You seal your house to the point that a cosmic winter won't affect it, but then you drill massive holes in the walls, subfloor and windows to prevent living in a rainforest.
Total nonsense.
In many years I worked in many properties of all ages and those built after the war are the best.
Cavity brick walls and bog standard roof that doesn't leak.
They accept cavity wall insulation and rafters rock wool.
They're warm and don't suffer from damp.
Of course, opening the windows everyday to ventilate works wonders.
New properties from 2000 onwards...I refused to do any work on them.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

It's nothing to do with being green, its about maintaining ventilation. Replacing old leaky non airtight windows with 100% sealed replacement will inevitably lead to less ventilation. But unfortunately our esteemed leaders have made it mandatory, withdrawing the right to open a window as and when it may be required.

That said I wouldn't mind if our house had trickle vents, various windows around this place suffer from condensation on the inside in the mornings in the colder/wetter months but alas I've long since given up the 'leave the window open a tad to solve the problem' argument.

If you fit the windows yourself and get Building Control to sign them off they won't approve it without vents. Fensa approved fitters must also refuse to fit windows without vents nowadays however I have heard of some Fensa suppliers/fitters who will turn a blind eye and still give you a certificate.

Or don't bother with the approval or use a non Fensa supplier/fitter if you don't care about such things. Also you can get night vent keeps that enable the window to be kept open overnight but remain secure. But when you specify the windows you might want to make sure there is enough space in the window heads to accommodate a vent if you decide you need them after all.

 

[crank39]

Or get PIV ventilation

 

[ronniecabers]

Night vent catches wont pass either ..
Honeslty most in the industry totally agree with you that trickle vents are pointless. As Freddie says its about ventilation, stems from the high profile case of a young child dying in a black mould ridden house in Leeds I believe...educating people about the for ventilating properties would be good , especially those who insist on drying washing in the house ... without ventilation!
Totally agree with Crank though , PiV systems are a great way of doing without trickle vents, and relatively cheap and easy to get installed in the grand scheme of things

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

PiV systems are a great way of doing without trickle vents, and relatively cheap and easy to get installed in the grand scheme of things

But in the reality your house is still being ventilated just a different way to trickle vents. It's physiological, get over it!

 

[ronniecabers]

Im confused there Freddy. What do I need to get over? I agree that PIV systems ventilate and so do trickle vents, just PIV isnt a hole in new frame

 

[aveatry]

I have older uPVC windows and had a few blow which then get condensation on the inside but once I replaced the glass with argon filled and coated glass with black anti cold bridging spacer bars then that same window no longer has condensation, and to touch in the winter actually feels warm compared to an older glass unit next to it.
So just replace the glass yourself with current spec and no Fensa needed.
I also replaced the rubber seal gasket that had gone a little hard.

 

[aveatry]

Im confused there Freddy. What do I need to get over? I agree that PIV systems ventilate and so do trickle vents, just PIV isnt a hole in new frame

A mate had new windows and the "hole" for the vent was made by banging on a 25mm high frame extension on the top but not one length, it was 2 short lengths that were too short to meet in the middle and therefore created a "hole" when a second full length 25mm extension was banged on the top of that.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Im confused there Freddy. What do I need to get over? I agree that PIV systems ventilate and so do trickle vents, just PIV isnt a hole in new frame

Apologies, it wasn't aimed at you Ronnie, hence you don't need to get over anything, we know you you clearly understand the concept. My post was aimed (poorly) at anyone thinking otherwise.

 

[phatboy]

I had this argument with a window supplier. Explicitly requested no vents, and they provided illustrations to match.

Then the windows arrived with vents in the sashes that looked terrible. When questioned, they said 'Building regulations say it has to be this way'. I corrected them and told them again we had MHRV. They didn't like it, but ordered replacement sashes, without the vents.

Basically some (or lots) or window fitters don't know the rules. Window vents are the easiest way to achieve compliance, but far from the only way.

 

[crank39]

Basically since April 1, 2002, replacement windows have been classed as "controlled fittings" under UK Building Regulations, meaning background ventilation rules under Approved Document F apply to all window replacements and trickle vents were the default solution that window fitters grew up with certainly I did because whilst MHRV and PIV systems have been around for 40 years they were and are still quite rare to come across or that's certainly my experience anyway, it's only now since I've moved to a different company 2 years ago that only fit into new builds I'm seeing more of those systems and I've been in the industry since 1990 though I'm not an installer but still a service engineer. Even now some building plots have trickle vents and MHRV combined, some windows in rooms don't have vents while other rooms do, some plots have PIV while others have MHRV but I've never come across a plot yet that has no trickle vents at all, obviously there's some calcs being done by someone but it can get all rather confusing for the homeowner and an installer especially sole traders/one man bands who haven't got a whole team of technical managers, installation managers, project managers and directors so sometimes it's best to just cover your ass and spec trickle vents

 

[ronniecabers]

I'd like to add a slight amendment to that , as trickle vents or other forms of ventilation ( piv,mhev, air bricks ) weren't mandatory in all habitable rooms incl kitchen and bathroom until June 15th 2022, after the death of a young child due to black mould hit the news headlines some years prior. Prior to that ( since Apr 02 ) Trickle vents ( or air bricks ) were required in all rooms that featured above something that burnt combustible fuel ( eg , open fire , log/multifuel burner , gas fire , gas oven , oil fired rayburns, oil fired/gas boilers etc) to prevent the build up of Carbon Monoxide and provide adequate ventilation for those types of appliances to operate correctly, again after several unfortunate cases of carbon monoxide deaths within peoples homes hit the headlines.
The rules we work by , as suppliers and installers , is basically ventilation has to be provided, either MHeV, Piv , Airbricks or Trickle Vents. Trickle vents are the cheapest option for the consumer and this this is why they are widely used. As installers under Certass, we can not register an installation that does not have either ( or a mixture of )Mhev, Piv, airbricks or trickle vents. It would be a building regulation fail. We can not register an installation if the customer says they are putting in mhev/piv/airbrucks instead trickle vents until the other ventilation is fitted ( huge mute point for me as the insurance backed guarantees/warranties dont start until its registered! ). Technically solicitors should not be allowing houses to be sold without Fensa/Certass/Assure/building contol certificates but having said that I have come across a way this has been circumvented, even if technically the installation still doesnt comply with building regs.
Supply only firms should be informing customers of the need for ventilation as they are deemed the ' professional ' and if something went horribly wrong they could be deemed liable for not providing the correct information

 

[richw]

You just need to speak to your supplier/fitter. Ronnie sounds correct to me. My Certass fitter was fine with providing windows after June 2022 without trickle vents on the understanding that there were other means of ventilation.

My main issue is that they look awful. UPVC windows are rank enough to look at as they are - the vents make them look even worse.

 

[ericmark]

I would say it goes back to the 50s where we built houses with fire places and chimneys but no vents to bring in the combustion air, so we got high backed chairs to stop the massive drafts they caused, we did all we could to reduce drafts, to it would never work, due to the base home design of the time.

We then went to central heating, the main thing was the balanced flue, which stopped the drafts, but by that time we had sealed up every crack we could find, so there was a marked lack of ventilation, so bad a bathroom extractor could draw in fumes from a gas fire in the living room, so we got rules about kitchen and bathroom extractors, but people ignored the vented tumble drier.

We still have problem with the bathroom, where the extractor blows air out, replaced not with dry cool air from outside, but warm damp air from within the house, which condenses in the now cool bathroom causing mould.

But the rules and regulations miss the fact all homes are different. My monitor is telling me 47% humidity in living room, and worse room my bedroom is at 57%, however my old house, I was getting between 65% and 75% and father-in-laws house 75% to 85% due to one triple glazing and two using a gas cooker.

Nothing wrong with a gas cooker and a cooker hood vented to outside, but his cooked did not have a cooker hood, as were placed in the kitchen, there was no viable route to outside.

So looking at 1970s design of the house, where no thought had been paid to venting a gas cooker, with the gas point on an internal wall, and the external wall having a door and window which precluded any idea of having the cooker where a vented cooker hood could be fitted.

The gas fire in living room was same, flue brick on adjoining wall, with no provision to supply combustion air.

So we have inheritted poorly designed homes. And not just the odd one, builders built whole estates of poorly designed homes, my own vents can be open or closed as photo shows.

And it would not be hard to fill with expanding foam if I really wanted to block them up, I have only today realised they were closed, but will leave them that way.