Rising damp does not exist

[Softus]

Softus ,I think we are all in danger of tying ourselves up in knots on this topic.

Speak for yourself - there's no chance of me getting tied up in knots! Moreover, since I started the topic, I believe that it's my prerogative to tie any shape or size of knot I like. If any hypothesis I present is to difficult for you, then please feel free to ignore this topic.

Firstly has I know it rising damp is a natural phenomena caused by the upward movement of moisture through certain materials by capillary action.

I agree that capillary action, as a manifestation of surface tension, is a natural and understood phenomenen, but I don't agree that rising damp through brickwork is. Maybe I will, in the course of reading, discussing and learning, but I haven't yet.

This is not just the opinion of the industry in this country but also the opinions of those in the USA and Australia plus also the companies who manufacture bricks.

Please state the names of any individual and/or company, in any country, who holds this opinion, so that I can ask them why they hold it.

It is not as you said caused by the failure of a damp proof course.

You surpass yourself in referring to things that I haven't said in a way that would make the casual reader believe that I have said them. Please desist, as I'm starting to get fed up of correcting you.

To re-iterate: I have never thought, let alone said or written, that rising damp is caused by the failure of a DPC. What I have said is that I would like to hear from anyone who has, and I quote, "real-life examples of rising damp caused ONLY by a failed DPC in the wall".

To put this in the terms that you appear to need in order to understand, I don't want to hear about damp where there appears to be a faultless DPC in place.

The dpc merely stops it rising above a given point.

Er, no it doesn't, unless it's contiguous with the floor membrane.

I personally have seen rising damp on bare brick internal dividing walls.
How have I come to the conclusion that it was rising damp, by the following.
Firstly I examined the walls in question for the presence of any water pipe that could be causing the problem.
Normally one would check externally for possible defects, but as I said this was an internal wall so it was not necessary.
I then took samples of the brickwork and mortar joints starting from the base of the wall and then at approx every 300 mm intervals approx two thirds into the wall upto a height of 1 metre These samples were then placed in airtight bags and then sent to a laboratory with a request for them to be analysed for the total moisture content and the free moisture content.
The free moisture content is the total less the hygroscopic moisture content.
In this case the results came back showing a free moisture content of 15% at the base of the wall reducing to approximately 7% 1 metre high.
From these tests I concluded that the wall was suffering from rising damp and I recomended that a new dpc be installed.
For the record the wall eventually dried out , but not immediately as it was 325 mm thick.

At bleeding last - now we're getting somewhere! I should be grateful if you would provide the following additional information:

1. How old was the wall?
2. What were the living conditions? E.g. centrall heated or not.
3. What type of bricks were they?
4. What type of DPC did you install?
5. How wide was the wall?
6. How long is "not immediately", to the nearest month, say?
7. Where, in the country, roughly, was/is this wall?

I should point out that I have had cases were the hygroscopic moisture content is greater than free moisture content, and in these cases the cause of the dampness would be classed as being hygroscopic and would therefore not require a new damp proof course
I would however agree with you and many other posts on this subject that rising damp is misdiagnosed in the majority of ocassions and damp courses are inserted unnecessarily.

I have not said, on this topic, that rising damp is misdiagnosed.

Hope that this goes some way to answer some of your misgivings on my previous posts

I didn't have any misgivings. You can take everyting I write on this topic at face value - if I was blunt or rude, then I meant to be blunt or rude. If I expressed doubt, then I was doubtful.

However, we have moved forward, but it's taken an awful long time, and it's beyond me to understand, from what you've written, why you have taken so long to reveal the information that has, only now, and only partially, come to light.

Please do continue to post because I want to know more.

 

[anobium]

anobium wrote:
This is not just the opinion of the industry in this country but also the opinions of those in the USA and Australia plus also the companies who manufacture bricks

softus wrote

Please state the names of individuals and/or companies, in any country, who holds this opinion, so that I can ask them why they hold it.

Try a google search, that is where I found the information.
Softus wrote

You surpass yourself in referring to things that I haven't said in a way that would make the casual reader believe that I have said them. Please desist, as I'm starting to get fed up of correcting you.

To re-iterate: I have never thought, let alone said or written, that rising damp is caused by the failure of a DPC. What I have said is that I would like to hear from anyone who has, and I quote, "real-life examples of rising damp caused ONLY by a failed DPC in the wall".

To put this in the terms that you appear to need in order to understand, I don't want to hear about damp where there appears to be a faultless DPC in place.

My apologies if I misquoted you, it wasn't done with any malice intended.

anobium wrote:
The dpc merely stops it rising above a given point.

Softus wrote
Er, no it doesn't, unless it's contiguous with the floor membrane

Eh! What if the floor is of a timber suspended construction. ? I presume that you are referring to the situation of a damp proof membrane beneath a solid floor, and in that case you would be correct. However where there is a suspended timber floor the dpc is in isolation.

Softus wrote

1. How old was the wall?
2. What were the living conditions? E.g. centrall heated or not.
3. What type of bricks were they?
4. What type of DPC did you install?
5. How wide was the wall?
6. How long is "not immediately", to the nearest month, say?
7. Where, in the country, roughly, was/is this wall?

Quite frankly mostly irrelevant questions , but I'll go along with you.
1. Approx 100 years
2. At the time of the survey there was no heating on as the temperature outside was in the high 60s
3. Staffordshire clay
4. Chemical injection
5. I've already told you, 325mm.
6. 15 months
7. Staffordshire

Could you do me a favour and explain to me in laymans terms how the moisture rises up between the face of the brick and plaster/render. ?
How far up the wall would it migrate and would there be a visible effect on the surface of the wall if it had been plastered with a very dense render. ?
Finally, what would be required to rectify the problem.?

Please don't shout if I have upset you again, it's just that whilst my hearing is fine, my eyesight is not what it used to be, and these keyboards seem to be getting smaller.
Eh that could be another subject, whats the point of being able to have bigger typeset on the screen when the keyboard sizes are all he same ?

Have a nice day, whats left of it.

 

[Softus]

Firstly, I apologise for asking for information (wall width) that you had already provided. This was an error on my part, and here's your reference to another:

Eh! What if the floor is of a timber suspended construction. ? I presume that you are referring to the situation of a damp proof membrane beneath a solid floor, and in that case you would be correct. However where there is a suspended timber floor the dpc is in isolation.

Quite so - you're quite correct. You are describing an example of damp rising in an uncovered internal wall, with timber flooring, and have determined that the damp in the wall originated from below DPC height.

I'm not upset, but I am frustrated, because you appear to have seen an example of rising damp, unless this is just a wind up, but it's taking days, and many posts, to eke the information out of you. It feels like pulling teeth! Here's an example of a bizarre response from you:

Does anyone out there have any real-life examples of rising damp caused ONLY by a failed DPC in the wall? If so, please can you help me understand how it happens/happened?
.
.
.
Any takers?

Try a google search, that is where I found the information.

I say again:

In case that's not clear enough, I have no intention of using Google to look up non-authoritative information on the Internet - I keep asking for first hand information - in what way am I not making that clear to you?

You've asked me about moisture rising up between a brick wall and a plaster covering. I think you're being deliberately obtuse here, but just to be clear this topic is not about me providing information to you - if you want to know more about another subject then please start a new topic and don't hijack this one.

Moving on, whilst I understand that you may not have meant to misquote me, apologising doesn't immediately everything OK. I would still you to answer the questions that you've ignored, viz:

1. Please tell me where I've said that I cannot accept rising damp.

2. Is it unreasonable of me to seek a clear explanation to a widely-accepted phenomenon, and to remain unconvinced of its existence until I can read such an explanation?

Moving on to your example of rising damp, I asked this:
What were the living conditions? E.g. centrally heated or not.

...which you answered as follows:
At the time of the survey there was no heating on as the temperature outside was in the high 60s

I didn't ask if the heating was on, I asked about the living conditions. If you need me to be more precise, then perhaps you could describe the heating system, whether or not it was adequate for the property, whether or not the property was inhabited, and, if not, for how long it had been uninhabited.

Also, I'm very curious to know the ambient conditions for the wall in the 15 months before the new DPC was installed, and the 15 months after. If there was a change in those conditions, then how did you determine whether the reduced damp resulted from the new DPC rather that change in ambient conditions?

Why am I asking all these questions? Well, my intuition is pretty good, and I intuit that you're not revealing all the vital information.

 

[Moz]

boo hoo..boo hoo..boo hoo..

sad pair of fools ...


you beg too difer admit ?

 

[Softus]

Hiya Moz - how has your weekend been? Enjoying the bracing Spring weather?

 

[Moz]

Softus


You are bigger than this NASTY TROLL ...I spent nearly an hour going through this fred ... an .....surprise it is all one or the other ...as trolls jump on


I dont want to hate you, any more to read sh*te like that ... stop being the WRONG fight...

 

[Softus]

I take your point Moz, but I feel you're doing anobium an injustice - he really isn't a troll.

I'm curious to know more, and he's the nearest we've had to someone who's seen RD and prepared to go into detail about his experiences.

 

[Moz]

Softus

I hear you . listen I love you .. but this thread to go ...fact

 

[jbonding]

Its very interesting and im waiting for proof of RD

 

[Softus]

Moz

It's mutual, but pathetic as it might seem, at the moment this is my mission.

A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. I've come for my boy etc. etc..

 

[Nige F]

Moz

It's mutual, but pathetic as it might seem, at the moment this is my mission.

A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. I've come for my boy etc. etc..

Do not forsake me, oh my Darlin`

 

[anobium]

Softus, this is definitely my final post on this subject, and I do not require, or will respond to any questions on the whys and werefores of the property, or what day ,time or month it was , or even the thickness of the walls , or what planet it was on .
You will just have to read and come to your own conclusions.

I was asked to try and identify the cause of a damp problem at a large detached property, which was about 75 years old.
The dampness was evident at the base of three walls and the surface readings using a resistance meter showed that it diminished about 600 up from the solid floor level.
I explained to the owner that in order to identify what the cause of the dampness was , that I would need to carry out further tests which would involve taking samples of the wall materials.
He gave me permission and I proceeded to take samples of the plaster, mortar , and masonry, above the dpc level
The readings taken on site using a carbide meter showed that the samples of plaster at skirting board level had the highest moisture content, around 12% with the bricks and mortar samples being quite dry, ie less that 5%
I then asked for permission to remove some of the skirting boards to investigate further.
This quickly revealed that the wallplaster had been applied down and below the horizontal dpc , resulting in the moisture being drawn up the wall by the plaster.
I recomended to the owner that he should instruct his builders to remove the skirtings and cut back the plaster to a point approx 100 mm above the dpc level.
This was duely done and within a matter of weeks the dampness dissipated.
This in my opinion is just another example that there is such a thing as rising damp, and that whilst in this case it was not due to a defective dpc , it shows that the only thing holding back the capillary movement of moisture up the wall was the damp proof course.

good hunting

 

[jbonding]

so it doesnt exist upto and over one metre? i can understend if a dpm/c is involved it shouldnt rise so in you findings the damp was 100mm, what size was the skirting?wouldnt the dpc stop damp getting down? and i can understand you not wiling to take part in our study

 

[Softus]

OK anobium, here's the thing. I'm deeply grateful for your honesty - it would have been so easy for you to mask the truth of your findings, so you have my undying respect for not being someone who would do that.

Here's the other thing - your descriptions of the symptoms, the diagnosis, and the solution, all underpin my whole point about rising damp.

The cause of damp in your scenario was that the plaster was too low - the damp rose within the plaster, which I believe to be a common scenario. From there, the moisture in the plaster travelled into the brickwork.

So, after all these posts, it turns out that your example is not one of rising damp in brickwork, and the cure of this particular problem had nothing to do with a DPC, since the plaster would have bridged any DPC that existed in the wall anyway.

 

[keyplayer]

Here's an idea (and I admit a fairly ill thought out one, but bear with me) -

Konrads photos of his experiments with rising damp would appear to rule out the possibility of capillary action causing moisture to rise up through brickwork. However, there is a situation I can imagine that the experiments wouldn't cover. Try to picture this:-

A property is built halfway up (or down) a hill. The soil is eg 1 metre thick throughout the gradient, and below this is an impermeable bedrock. The top of the hill receives very heavy rainfall, and this seeps down the hill. Now, imagine saturation point of the soil is reached at the property, but rain continues at the top of the hill.

Is it now possible that moisture could be forced up through the brickwork including the mortar? Not by capillary action granted, but by the water trying to find it's own level.