Sash window 3rd floor refurb options

[chaoticj]

Hi,

I have a pair of lovely original sash windows on the 3rd floor which are the last remaining in the house - everything else is standard uPVC. At the moment the side is scaffolded for other repairs, so the windows are accessible. It looks like the paint is cracked all over, putty missing in places and some paint missing - down to bare, grey wood but not rotten.

I can have a carpenter refurbish, said they would seal between frame and glass with silicone mastic and paint in 4 coats of Sadolin Superdec.

When I mentioned about linseed oil putty etc.. they can use putty if I want but that the world has moved on and modern products are available. Then said they can use a hardwood glazing bead instead. The price would be £240.

The room is used for storage and not heated - lots of water/moisture gathers on the inside and it's been covered in black mould - now tried to clean some off. I've never opened the windows but undid the bolts today and the left hand one opens and seems to work fine. The future plan is to use as a games room

Just wondering what others would recommend options wise:

1. Try and putty myself then paint (risky option as I'm good at starting but bad at finishing projects)
2. Pay carpenter to refurbish at £240 to keep the windows going. But may need scaffolding in future (cost could be around £500)
3. Have the windows carefully removed, not destroyed to reuse elsewhere (how feasible is this) and replace with modern uPVC (could be expensive)?
4. Have some specialist completely restore the windows inside and out, maybe even making them double glazed (most expensive option)?

Thanks very much in advance.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Probably option 2. A lot of maintenance work on sash windows can be done from the inside, e.g. re-cording, removing the sashes, etc. The rebate in the masonry is also on the inside, so installation is also done from the inside.

As to keeping for use elsewhere, you have a vanishingly thin chance of ever doing this because sash windows are made to fit a specific opening with a specific masonry rebate.

DG conversion? Not always successfully done, and how will they deal with that fancy (and really nice, original) glazing bead detail on the upper sashes? It would be a real shame to lose that

 

[chaoticj]

Thanks @JobAndKnock I had an idea they could be added to the wall at the back of the main hallway to let some natural light in.. (that would necessitate a new opening) family think I'm off my rocker though.

In terms of the glass to wood seal on the outside, wouldn't silicone cause rot if moisture got in? And would hardwood glazing bead be suitable?

Kind of forced into doing something what with the scaffolding cost. The top bead matches the neighbouring houses front doors, it is very nice.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Thanks @JobAndKnock I In terms of the glass to wood seal on the outside, wouldn't silicone cause rot if moisture got in? And would hardwood glazing bead be suitable?

I'm a bit confused here. The glass in a traditional sash window was bedded onto (linseed oil) putty and secured in place with a few glaziers sprigs (or small pins) and a bevelled bead of putty. That's what a clipped point putty knife is for. Putty has the advantages of setting rock hard, being weathertight for decades and being paintable. Neither timber beading nor silicone is a suitable replacement IMHO

The sealing around the outside of the window where it meets the wall masonry is traditionally sealed with something like trowelling mastic. Modern colour matched exterior sealant is a suitable replacement and probably better in that it is less prone to cracking

 

[tell80]

OP,
They are indeed lovely windows - there's something calm and reassuring about such frames especially when they are fixed in stonework.

Get cracking on refurbishing them while the scaff is still up. Dont attempt to transfer them. Dont use flame.
Although the lift could have been, say, 300mm lower to give clear access to the sills?

Ease off the staff beads. Snip the pins when the beads are free.

One at a careful time bring back the sashes, & once the sashes are firmly grasped cut the cords. A helper would be useful. Only the sashes, leave the frame & sill in-situ.
Mark and note which sash went where.
Open the pockets & retrieve the weights.
Remove all furniture from the sashes. Treasure any solid brass.

Scrape then sand all remaining fixed woodwork ie the sill & box frame.
Remove the glazing: three sprigs per side two at top and bottom rails, various in glazing bars, & then the putty & any glazing beads.
Paint: in the pink, undercoat & two top coats including in the glazing rebates.
Use modern glazing sealants - never glazing beads - for fixing the DG.

Fixing the weights will be trial and error but its simple enough. Use only new sash cord.

 

[Nige F]

OP,
They are indeed lovely windows - there's something calm and reassuring about such frames especially when they are fixed in stonework.

Do they remind you of your time in the institution ?

 

[Mr Chibs]

I had single glazed windows in my last house, they did need repair every once in a while.
But I enjoyed the process... although frost on the inside (occasionally) was a downer.

You windows are a great design, but these could be made in DG.

I had DG, UPVC sash windows made when I moved, and from a comfort point of view, they are excellent.
You can get them mitred and screwed as opposed to welded, which is the give away for UPVC windows.

I bought from Bison Frames and was surprised how good the windows look that they made... there will be other suppliers.
They are not cheap but cheaper than Residence for example.

As above have said, your windows could be repaired from inside, now and in future.
If the room is not used, perhaps you could repair and DIY a secondary glazing sheet on the inside for comfort/heat etc.

 

[Notch7]

Thanks @JobAndKnock I had an idea they could be added to the wall at the back of the main hallway to let some natural light in.. (that would necessitate a new opening) family think I'm off my rocker though.

In terms of the glass to wood seal on the outside, wouldn't silicone cause rot if moisture got in? And would hardwood glazing bead be suitable?

Kind of forced into doing something what with the scaffolding cost. The top bead matches the neighbouring houses front doors, it is very nice.

I wouldn’t use hardwood beading, the section would be minute, around 8mm x 8mm, the weather would get in at the mitres and rot away.

I would remove putty, clean up re seal with small bead of low Modulus silicone, then use dryseal acrylic putty - although it’s quite tricky to use but it dries within 24 hours and will last many years

 

[Diver Fred]

With the scaffolding in place i agree with the advice from J&K.I

For the future maintenance I'd try to either learn how carefully take the window to pieces or find a painter and decorator who specialises in Sash windows. As 'Tell80' says most work on Box Sash windows can be done from the inside.

As for improving the thermal efficiency you could consider having an internal window made, glazed with heritage grade double glazed glass.

 

[Lower]

All the decoration on a sash window can be done from inside the house if you take the sashes out, which is not a hard job.

The staff and parting beads can be replaced with beading with built in brush seals which makes them much less draughty. You could then add internal secondary glazing if you think you need it, but heavy curtains are a good substitute.

Putty is the right material to rebed the glass. So7nds like you need to find a sash specialist to restore them for you, which can be done without a scaffold. I’ve done loads, and always from inside the house.

 

[chaoticj]

Yes @tell80 I do find the whole house has a very calming feel apart from looking at the repair bills! There are a lot of period features remaining @MrChibs these are the last sash windows though.

Some very useful info here, @Notch7 when I search for dryseal acrylic putty it comes up with a silicone putty replacement - is that the right product? I wonder if this is what the tradie was going to use?

My original plan @Diver Fred when I bought the place was secondary glazing for this window. Seems like a good shout, thank you.

How long does linseed oil putty take to dry? I read online - weeks?!

 

[chaoticj]

Hmm @Lower I rang a couple of sash specialists, one is busy for months wants to retire and no one to teach/pass skills onto as no one interested.

The other is busy for months until March 2023. Feels like the cost to remove and fully refurb would be very high but they will give me an indicative price.

Presumably if I leave the window much longer it'll go rotten and be wrecked?

 

[Lower]

Hmm @Lower I rang a couple of sash specialists, one is busy for months wants to retire and no one to teach/pass skills onto as no one interested.

The other is busy for months until March 2023. Feels like the cost to remove and fully refurb would be very high but they will give me an indicative price.

Presumably if I leave the window much longer it'll go rotten and be wrecked?

They’ll be fine for another 6 months or so. They’re too nice to be allowed to be replaced or bodged.

 

[tell80]

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