Setting freezer temperature.

[ericmark]

Out of interest I entered that data fridge size 500L freezer size 264 L frost free so freezer max to get A+ is 322 kWh/annum and fridge 181 kWh/annum max to get A+ total = 503 kWh/Annum but if combined then it's 593 kWh/annum. It is 571 kWh/annum so can only be sold in Europe as a combined unit. This seems mad to me. What happens is with a fridge/freezer you get the frost free allowance on the whole unit not just the freezer.

So if the fridge is larger than the fridge they can get A+ rating far easier then the other way around.

This example you show only sneaks in because of the Climate class which since in this country we don't need a ST rated fridge/freezer is rather pointless.

My fridge/freezer also has independent temperature control for fridge and freezer and a holiday mode where the fridge temperature is allowed to rise it seems to assume when on holiday we empty the fridge. Multi evaporators is now it would seem normal, it is the only way manufacturers can reduce power used to get within the rating A+.

I have fridge/freezer plus freezer, my mother has fridge/freezer plus freezer my daughter has fridge/freezer plus freezer and any one who has apple trees or other garden produce which is available for a short time through the year will want far more freezing capacity than fridge. So what the system devised for fridges and freezers has done is force people to buy two units rather then one so has overall reduced the energy efficiency.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

This example you show only sneaks in because of the Climate class which since in this country we don't need a ST rated fridge/freezer is rather pointless.

That's not the only problem with those ones. http://www.johnlewis.com/sub-zero-i...ide-fridge-freezer-stainless-steel/p231054805

So what the system devised for fridges and freezers has done is force people to buy two units rather then one so has overall reduced the energy efficiency.

Surely buying individual single-purpose units must be the most efficient, as each one can be designed to do its job without compromise?

John Lewis JLLFW1815 373l fridge, 140kWh/y

JLFZW1816 229l freezer, 272kWh/y

Equivalent to 602l F/F at 412kWh/y

JL F/Fs - 509l @ 418kWh/y

549l @ 445kWh/y

639l @ 494.5kWh/y

 

[ericmark]

Does it come with a free house? That's a silly price.

I am sure if the fridge/freezer and freezer had failed together we would have bought very different units. But many years ago we had a fridge/freezer and decided to start using garden produce.

At first we bought an old chest freezer which lived in the garage and through the year produce would be transferred.

When we found produce had gone off we realised the insulation had failed and looked for a replacement. We also realised the chest freezer was a problem as it was so hard to find stuff. So since the old fridge/freezer was also on its last legs we bought a replacement with the biggest freezer we could find that would fit the space in the kitchen.

It was not a big enough freezer and by that time we had built an extension to kitchen so bought a freezer smaller than the old chest one it was narrow so in real terms only held the same amount as the freezer in the fridge freezer.

My wife likes our new fridge/freezer personally I think the fridge is far too big but it came at the right price. The thought was when buying it we already had a stand alone freezer so having a smaller freezer in the fridge/freezer was not that much of a problem. But less than two months latter the freezer failed and we then spent ages looking at new freezers.

The problem was to get frost free only one make seemed to make them and that was the same make as the one which failed so in order to get frost free we ended up with a unit far bigger than I wanted.

At the time I couldn't understand why there were so few frost free small freezers and I realised I could buy a fridge/freezer with frost free freezer for the same price as a stand alone frost free freezer with freezers being the same size. This seems daft you were getting the fridge it would seem for free.

It was at this point I noticed there seemed to be something wrong with the A+ rating in that two A+ items seemed to use vastly different amounts of power.

The % of the standard annual energy consumption that G to A+++ used is easy to find but how the standard annual energy consumption was calculated was much harder to find.

Once I found how the standard annual energy consumption was calculated then I realised why we had the cheap frost free fridge/freezer but not a cheap frost free freezer.

Being frost free means the volume is multiplied by 1.2 to work out the standard annual energy consumption and not just the freezer volume but also the fridge volume so by selling a fridge/freezer with a large fridge it means the insulation does not need to be as good to get A+ rating.

So although there are expensive units which can get A+++ in their own right the cheap end of the market uses tricks to get within the rating band. This includes using climate class to get a 1.1 or 1.2 times increased volume for the standard annual energy consumption.

So the range of freezers, fridges and fridge/freezers below £1000 has been moulded by the requirements to get A+ rating more than to satisfy what the consumer wants.

So for a 300 litre chest freezer it needs to use less than 282 kWh/annum to get A+ but a 300 litre upright frost free needs to use less than 344 kWh/annum and include a 10 litre fridge and it can use up to 424 kWh/annum and still be classed as A+.

So if we have a fridge/freezer with 150 litre fridge and freezer it can use 349 kWh/annum but if separate then 145 + 252 = 397 kWh/annum so clearly cheaper to manufacture fridge/freezers than separate fridge and freezer not only because less materials are used but also quality of insulation can be less.

And this is all down to using a standard annual energy consumption formula which was designed around a D - E rated unit not the modern units so the 50 kWh/annum start point in the calculation is warping the results to favour a fridge/freezer with a large fridge.

 

[big-all]

the trouble with frost free is you lose storage space to the void that allows frost free operation
you also have the auto defrost cycle where it turns off and heats the void to clear the ice buildup this will bring the contents far close to zero so possibly reducing storage life
also when you need to defrost manually instead off a quick 1-2hrs with basins of hot water and the contents redistributed or under several quilts it can take several hours for the void to clear off ice
so need careful planning to reduce the contents or risk ruining so off the contents

 

[ericmark]

I would agree pros and cons with frost free and much is dependent on the design of the freezer which in the main we know little about.

But I put a sensor into both my frost free freezers and the temperature was far more stable than with my mothers non frost free and also far more even. The fan means that the whole of the freezer is the same temperature and put sensor top or bottom very little difference. But with non frost free there can be a huge difference between top and bottom of freezer.

The early Hoover we had did have a problem with the de-frost and the drain hole filled with ice. A simple bit of copper wire solved the problem and never again did I have to manually de-frost in the next 10 years of service.

It is some times hard to work out why some people have problems and other people seem to have no problems until you start to look at other things in the same kitchen. My house will in the main sit at around 50% humidity but my father-in-laws house sits at around 75% humidity due to a number of things from triple glazing with hardly any ventilation to using a gas cooker.

So the amount of moisture which enters his freezer every time he opens the door will be much more than what goes into mine. The problem with frost free is once the limit is exceeded then it soon blocks up drain holes and once that happens there is only one way to get it working again and that's a full de-frost which will take a long time.

But although frost free costs more to run and when they do go wrong it is rather dramatic I would not want to return to manual defrost. My mothers small freezer is turned off each time the ready meals are transferred to main freezer so de-frosted at least once a month. However still found frost building up to a point where the meals were getting stuck in the void.

With manual de-frost it is common for it to reach a point where the door fails to fully close and within a day the whole freezer can become solid with ice.

I did once with a reefer have the frost free go wrong and it got stuck on de-frost and we lost a couple of tons of meat but that is rare and it was back in 1980 before we had alarms fitted. Today even at home every time I open the freezer or fridge door it shows me the temperature one is quickly aware of a fault.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I did once with a reefer have the frost free go wrong and it got stuck on de-frost.

No - you probably just made a mistake after smoking that stuff.

 

[ericmark]

I was referring to a 20 foot container freezer don't know why they were called that likely some navy term. It was in Algeria ambient temperature 120°F in the shade so the meat was well and truly cooked.

 

[JohnW2]

I would agree pros and cons with frost free ...

Although there are clearly some attractions (as well as downsides) in 'frost free', isn't is almost a contradiction in terms for someone concerned about 'energy ratings' to buy a (more energy-hungry) frost-free one just so that they can avoid manual defrosting?

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

I would agree pros and cons with frost free ...

Although there are clearly some attractions (as well as downsides) in 'frost free', isn't is almost a contradiction in terms for someone concerned about 'energy ratings' to buy a (more energy-hungry) frost-free one just so that they can avoid manual defrosting?

Kind Regards, John

The simple answer is no.

So as to why taking my mothers very small freezer the motor takes 28W and the manufacturer states 146 kWh/annum so motor runs 59% of the time. When I fitted the temperature controller while waiting for the replacement thermostat I was able to see the time taken to reach -18°C in fact I had to wait for it to get there to check gap required between switch on temperature and switch on temperature. I took 4 hours it was full of ready meals straight from super market and I realised in future it needs turning back on before I go shopping so roughly 0.048 kWh per defrost to re-cool. And of course it cools the house down when de-frosting as well. So likely used double that figure to do a de-frost and that is with just a 32 litre freezer.

I also have to comment with larger units the evaporators are placed between the draws. This means you can't remove a draw to accommodate the Christmas turkey you still have the evaporator in the way. It also means the freezer may not be at an even temperature throughout very likely top is warmer than the bottom.

It was this shallow draw problem with non frost free which made me go for frost free with the second freezer. The deeper the draw the more one can arrange the food to cram more in and the more one has to hunt to find what you want so it is duel edged.

I have seen large upright freezers which were not frost free and so often it reaches that point where the frost stopped the door closing fully which in turn resulted in a real problem getting the food out in order to de-frost. Yes in an ideal world that would not happen but the only way to use a large non frost free freezer is to have a chest freezer.

That also causes problems I remember pulling out baskets and sorting through them the heat gained each time you do that has to be also taken into consideration.

But if you look for chest freezers then in the main A+ only as you look at up-right with out frost free then again A+ only when you get to frost free is the build quality high enough to get the A++ and A+++ freezers. In real terms the up-right frost free is using the same as the non frost free it’s just the standard annual energy consumption (SAEc) makes them look better.

Picking one shop you can get the Manual de-frost at 234 kWh/annum at 235 litres and Frost free at 234 kWh/annum at 237 litres. The difference is clearly the price tag. £249 - £799 is a huge jump OK it had a temperature read out on the expensive one but the point is these two are nearly the same but the cheap one is A+ and the expensive one is A++ for basic some thing.

As the price goes up even further you can get A+++ in frost free but would be hard pushed to get even a A++ with manual defrost as all the good quality freezers are only made as frost free.

 

[JohnW2]

Although there are clearly some attractions (as well as downsides) in 'frost free', isn't is almost a contradiction in terms for someone concerned about 'energy ratings' to buy a (more energy-hungry) frost-free one just so that they can avoid manual defrosting?

The simple answer is no.

I'm not sure that I fully understand that, unless you are simply saying that you regard the avoidance of manual defrosting as being 'worth money'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

What I am saying is:-

1) Because of the EEC rules you can have frost free freezers of a lower quality to manual defrost but there is no reason why frost free should take more power than manual defrost in fact since manual defrost is at the lower end of the market you can buy frost free which is more economic to run than manual defrost.

2) Although the cost of manual defrost is not shown on the kWh/annum figures that does not mean defrosting is cost free. To warm up a whole freezer to melt the ice and then cool it down again must cost more than warming up just a small part of the freezer and cooling it down again. What of course changes is how often the de-frost is carried out.