Smart thermostat

[cdbe]

Can anyone recommend a smartish heating control?

I have a heat only boiler with a cylinder and 2 heating zones controlled by 2 x 2 port valves - but the second zone (upstairs) is just slaved off the downstairs zone ( no separate stat, just means while downstairs is on we can switch upstairs on or off). Standard TRVs apart from rad near the wall stat.

I think all we want to do is replicate the existing controls - via phone and Alexa - so have the existing timed on/offs but be able to override/boost and change the temperature.

eg - "Alexa put the downstairs heating on for an hour"

"Alexa turn the heating up to 15° "(I'm pretty tight).

 

[ericmark]

I have moved to Drayton Wiser, it works OK with Google home and Nest Mini's so I expect will also work with Alexa.

The TRV head can run the boiler through the hub, no need for a wall thermostat, although I have fitted one.

No point in motorised valves, the electronic programmable linked TRV does that job. I have one linked upstairs, the rest stand alone.

 

[cdbe]

I don't want to replace the TRVs, the existing valves are all new anthracite ones to match the rads. It's just the basic on/off and temperature stuff I'm after. The ground floor is one lounge and one 50m² open plan area that just needs to be maintained at a selected temperature when on.

 

[Munroast]

eg - "Alexa put the downstairs heating on for an hour"

"Alexa turn the heating up to 15° "(I'm pretty tight).

15 would be the dot the other side of the 20 -

 

[cdbe]

That's just for me and the wife to play the up and down game with.

The important bit's hidden under the stairs - she doesn't even know it exists and just thinks we live in a cold house:

 

[accelerator]

Take a look on Screwfix as they seem to have all the major brands, i.e. Hive, Tado, Drayton, Honeywell.

 

[cdbe]

Screwfix seem to have a good deal on the wiser 2 channel that would do hot water and the main heating zone, but no control of my upstairs "sub zone" which doesn't have a thermostat as it's just a second 2 port valve that's switched by the second htg channel on my existing 3 channel programmer.

So my options for upstairs are to leave on the existing programmer and have no smart control, or buy a wiser 3 channel and see if it will do anything on htg channel 2 without a second thermostat??

 

[cdbe]

I've ordered this from Screwfix:

They didn't have the 3 channel version in stock and it's silly prices elsewhere.

So assuming I'm happy with the way it works I need to address the sub zone in the longer term - presumably by upgrading the 2 channel to a 3 channel - but I really don't want a second stat on the upstairs landing (which would if nothing else have no bearing on the temperatures required in the individual bedrooms) - hence the current system - we never want upstairs on with downstairs off but regularly want it on for part of the period when downstairs in on!.

As I understand it, my current wired system works by the programmer sending power to the stat in the on periods and the stat (if calling for heat) switching everything on via the 2 port valve (the sub zone is just the second 2 port valve opening when the programmer tells it to)....

....... So how do the wireless ones work? Surely not something as crude as turning the old stat to max or chucking it and twisting the wires together?

I don't know whether I'm overthinking this, what I will need is for the hub to send power to the second valve in the on periods without the intervention of a stat?

 

[ericmark]

You seem to have missed the way Wiser works.

I have 10 TRV heads, each one is thermostaticly controlled, in my main house I have 12 programmable thermostats, of them 3 will cause the boiler to run. 2 are wall Cthermostats, the rest are TRV heads.

So wire both the CH zone valve to work together, they will stop water circulating in the central heating in the summer, that is now there only job.

The TRV should do the job of the zone valves but better, but you want a way to heat upstairs without down stairs, so you need two linked thermostats, these can be built into one TRV or on the wall.

So my living room has a wall thermostat, it has also two programmable TRV heads, but not linked to boiler, and they are set same temperature as wall thermostat, but since mounted lower they tend to show a lower temperature.

Living room today one TRV head 18°C same as wall thermostat, the other 16.5°C at moment no home so heating not running. But you can work out what temperatures to set once heating is working. Likely you will need some off-set.

I have the coldest bedroom with a linked TRV head, this one causes the boiler to run, the rest are cheaper non linked, they all increase temperature at the same time, so all rooms used will heat up. But only one linked.

You could use linked TRV heads in all rooms, and have no wall thermostats.

The time the TRV changes temperature setting, to a higher setting, you want the boiler to run. But it does not need to be linked, to start with I would reduce hall temperature one hour before I was going to use another room, then back up at that time so boiler would run.

Theroy OK, practice did not work, as hall is about slowest room in house to cool down, so fitted the Wiser thermostat in living room, in parrellel to the Nest thermostat in the hall. Still need thermostat in hall, as also open fire in living room, so if that was lit, house would get cold without thermostat in hall and bedroom.

 

[Mister Banks]

I've ordered this from Screwfix:

View attachment 394422

They didn't have the 3 channel version in stock and it's silly prices elsewhere.

So assuming I'm happy with the way it works I need to address the sub zone in the longer term - presumably by upgrading the 2 channel to a 3 channel - but I really don't want a second stat on the upstairs landing (which would if nothing else have no bearing on the temperatures required in the individual bedrooms) - hence the current system - we never want upstairs on with downstairs off but regularly want it on for part of the period when downstairs in on!.

As I understand it, my current wired system works by the programmer sending power to the stat in the on periods and the stat (if calling for heat) switching everything on via the 2 port valve (the sub zone is just the second 2 port valve opening when the programmer tells it to)....

....... So how do the wireless ones work? Surely not something as crude as turning the old stat to max or chucking it and twisting the wires together?

I don't know whether I'm overthinking this, what I will need is for the hub to send power to the second valve in the on periods without the intervention of a stat?

When you connect the Wiser you will need to loop the old thermostat at the wiring centre otherwise the heating will never turn on.
To get both heating zones to operate as one just rewire the wiring centre so that the orange from zone one valve is connected to the brown of zone two valve.

 

[cdbe]

You seem to have missed the way Wiser works.

Quite possibly - in my original post I said I simply wanted to replicate my existing system but with voice/phone activation. I'm perfectly happy with the way the upstairs works - the reality is that it's pretty well insulated and all it needs is 20 minutes in the morning and half an hour in the evening (current set up is: downstairs on 6.30 to 7.15, upstairs on 6.40 to 7.00 and downstairs 18.00 to 22.30, upstairs 22.00 to 22.30). Anything else we just advance or boost. If my lazy slob children want to spend additional time in their bedrooms their options are: one of those plug in heated throws, a jumper, or the heat generated by their X-boxes.

Downstairs is a large open plan area with a lounge that we never shut the door to:

This is heated as a single unit, balanced with standard TRVs - I have no desire anywhere to have a single radiator on with a fancy TRV running my ancient non modulating 15kw boiler.

Nor do I have any desire to litter my house with thermostats and things - I'm already thinking I'll need a new cupboard to house the junk we already have - WiFi router, mesh network box, eufy camera and intruder alarm hub, IKEA TRADwhatever to control the lights and now this hub!

If the thing I've ordered is the wrong thing (rather than that I wouldn't be using it's full potential) I can always return it and get the right one.

While I don't want to muddy the waters even more, we are in the process of installing an 8kw wood burner at the right hand end of the open plan area - so depending on how this works (hopefully with the wall stat we'll away near the lounge and the heat from the woodburner shutting down the TRVs closest to it first) - if it ever produces enough heat to shut down the main stat I suppose I'll have a problem!

 

[cdbe]

When you connect the Wiser you will need to loop the old thermostat at the wiring centre otherwise the heating will never turn on.
To get both heating zones to operate as one just rewire the wiring centre so that the orange from zone one valve is connected to the brown of zone two valve.

Thanks, I don't know whether to do this as a temporary measure or just keep that second valve on the old programmer until/if I can work out a way to get it on the hub and accept that I'll never have wireless control of it. I have seen that Drayton do a plug (at a ridiculous £50 of course) that can be programmed with on/offs so technically I could use that to control the second valve but I don't k⁹now how well that integrates with the hub - hopefully I could name it "upstairs heating" and shout Alexa to turn it on?

 

[cdbe]

Just been on a German Schneider wiser forum and found this reply - it relates to a question about using a heat switch for a towel rail but seems to confirm that you won't get anything out of the hub without a stat.

 

[Mister Banks]

Thanks, I don't know whether to do this as a temporary measure or just keep that second valve on the old programmer until/if I can work out a way to get it on the hub and accept that I'll never have wireless control of it. I have seen that Drayton do a plug (at a ridiculous £50 of course) that can be programmed with on/offs so technically I could use that to control the second valve but I don't k⁹now how well that integrates with the hub - hopefully I could name it "upstairs heating" and shout Alexa to turn it on?

You could use the wiser plug as you said but you won’t be getting the best out of the system. Wiser expects to have control of the heating throughout the house so that it can learn how the house heats and cools. This info is fed into the hubs algorithm so that Wiser knows when to turn the boiler on. @ericmark has issues with his heating because he has multiple different systems that don’t integrate with each other.

 

[Mister Banks]

Just been on a German Schneider wiser forum and found this reply - it relates to a question about using a heat switch for a towel rail but seems to confirm that you won't get anything out of the hub without a stat.

View attachment 394446

The heat switch is for electric heaters and only works with a room thermostat.