H
holmslaw
..
solar pv
- Thread starter the_pasty
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Back to the first points though, surely to be able to gain a qualification to install PV, you should have a reasonable understanding of the electrical systems you are going to be connecting to, which, judging by the initial question, you don't, If you are asking such basic questions, get your electrical qualifications sorted out first, then do the PV course, otherwise you are going to struggle with many more questions in the future
how dare you critisize someone who deems himself to be more educated and of a higher level of importance than yourself? There is no point commenting, I havent had a simple response for me simple question.
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This would be an incentive that's 4 times what the power costs to buy.
I will assume one has to have some method to show what one has generated and some meter must be read. I can't find any details on this meter that shows what one has produced and it all seems too good to be true.
However 4Kw min size is rather big. 170W panel by Sharp is £400 so one would need 24 of these panels at £9600 to start with. Also one needs 24 square meters of space to mount these so would take up most of the roof.
So what you are saying if one spends £9600 then you will be paid if we consider an average of 8 hours output per day over £4000 per year for having them there?
And this is supposed to be when the government is reducing it's spending. Something seems very wrong?
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Pasty, you're clearly flogging a dead horse here with the exception of eric, they all know better
edit: Eric you're on the right track but need to dig a little deeper
edit: Eric you're on the right track but need to dig a little deeper
1) Hopefully that obscene redistribution of wealth from poor to rich will become a casualty of the cuts, contracts or no contracts.
2) Try working out the return given that the capital is destroyed - i.e. you can't compare it with a savings account, because once you've bought the PV kit your investment has gone and you can never get it back. All you get are the FIT payments.
3) PV is an utter scam, based on lies, part-truths and gross exaggerations, and simply does not work in this country. Nobody with a shred of decency or respect for other people would have anything to do with the business.
H
holmslaw
..
Nice to see everyone agreeing on something
And you KNOW that rate will be around for a 25 year ROI (will it feck).
And you KNOW that a 4kw installed system won't need any maintenance over the 25years, AND that panels last 25 years ????
Get your head out the clouds !
Not everyone who's buying solar PV is doing it purely for the money. Of course payback on any investment is important, but many of those buying it calculate payback in other than just monetary terms - reducing carbon footprint, the feelgood factor of "doing something" to save the planet, and so forth. You may disagree with their motivations, but these are sincerely held beliefs.
As regards the payback, there are companies out there offering to install a PV array for free if the homeowner signs over the feed-in tariff returns. These companies have obviously done the maths and decided there's a profit to be made.
Just a note on the feed-in tariffs - its 38.5p for every kilowatt hour generated by PV, with an extra 5.1p if that kilowatt is fed back into the grid. If the generator uses the kilowatt, they get the 38.5p plus they save the money they'd have spent buying it otherwise.
As for rate of return, a neighbour of mine had a 2kWp array fitted two months ago. In that time he's generated almost 600 kWh, the equivalent at his rate of use of a free day of electricity each week.
It's easy to trash something new. but that's just the point - this is new and as such it's still developing. Nothing arrives perfect in this world and we're still in the very early stages of developing renewable energy generators. For a start we have to change the idea that all energy comes from one central point and anything else isn't worth considering.
Microgeneration involves lots of small solutions combining; the current Big Energy model of relying on overseas gas and oil to power our energy supplies just doesn't stand up to today's economics and politics.
PJ
As regards the payback, there are companies out there offering to install a PV array for free if the homeowner signs over the feed-in tariff returns. These companies have obviously done the maths and decided there's a profit to be made.
Just a note on the feed-in tariffs - its 38.5p for every kilowatt hour generated by PV, with an extra 5.1p if that kilowatt is fed back into the grid. If the generator uses the kilowatt, they get the 38.5p plus they save the money they'd have spent buying it otherwise.
As for rate of return, a neighbour of mine had a 2kWp array fitted two months ago. In that time he's generated almost 600 kWh, the equivalent at his rate of use of a free day of electricity each week.
It's easy to trash something new. but that's just the point - this is new and as such it's still developing. Nothing arrives perfect in this world and we're still in the very early stages of developing renewable energy generators. For a start we have to change the idea that all energy comes from one central point and anything else isn't worth considering.
Microgeneration involves lots of small solutions combining; the current Big Energy model of relying on overseas gas and oil to power our energy supplies just doesn't stand up to today's economics and politics.
PJ
People sincerely believe all sorts of things. Some, for example, sincerely believe that the US Govt blew up the Twin Towers. Others sincerely believe that the Moon landings never actually happened.
And so on.
PV does not work well enough in this country to justify installing it.
I wonder how quickly the PV fan's green glow of self satisfaction would fade if they looked at the true carbon cycle cost, and other environmental impacts, of PV panels, including the mining & refining of raw materials, manufacturing, transport...?
Yes - isn't it amazing how the economic realities of a grossly inappropriate technology can be so distorted by making electricity generators increase their prices so that they can take money from poorer people and give it to richer ones to help them fund a pointless hobby.
PV has been around for decades. The only reason it's suddenly taking off here is because the fact that it doesn't work has been steamrollered by the FIT scheme.
I agree, but PV is about the most pointless thing to encourage, second only to tiny DIY wind turbines.
For the costs of PV much better savings on centrally generated power can be obtained from improving insulation, using heat recovery, using solar power to pre-heat water, GSHPs etc.
1) The fact that they had to introduce the FIT scheme shows that PV makes no real sense. If all people got was the saving from not buying centrally generated electricity at 10p per unit, how long would the payback be, and how many people would install it?
2) If PV is seen as a good thing, which should be encouraged, then presumably the ideal situation would be if every single household installed it. If they did, where would the money come from to pay everyone in the country the FIT incentives? What would the generating companies do with all those GW that they'd bought at over 40p/unit? Sell it back at a loss of 30p/unit? I think not.
PV is a ridiculous idea, and the FIT scheme is a socio-economic monstrosity.
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If I was building a new house and I could in the design have a flat roof like those in Turkey and other hot countries so solar panels can not only be installed but maintained then I would consider solar panels at least for hot water.
But as with most things we need an integrated approach. No good having a super train service if there are no buses to get to train station for example.
One of the big problems is today you can't buy a washing machine with hot fill because the manufactures can't claim "A" rating with hot fill.
This is seen again and again the drier with a fridge type heat exchanger is likely far better than the plain heater type because it does not suck heated air out of the house and blow it outside. But look at rating plate and ones with heaters are better.
Using radiated heat from tungsten bulbs in autumn and spring means the central heating is run for a much shorter time but again each item is looked at on its own not as a whole.
The PV panel is just another item where people are trying to fit them where they don't make sense.
I am sure in France the CO2 released making the PV panels is far greater than the CO2 released with the countries large generators.
In the UK when labour stopped the nuclear program and went with gas then things maybe are different. But micro generation and even the larger wind farms can only work while we have large power stations on stand-by to fill the fall short times and we all know more power stations like the Electric mountain in North Wales are needed if we want to have wind, wave, tide, and solar power.
Since we know the whole idea is flawed what are the chances that the government will realise this and reverse the labours rules?
For wind, tide, and even hydro power to pay it needs to have zero rated loans as in all cases the devices are designed to run more than 25 years and with the interest rates of last century as a guide then purely because of return on investment they will not pay.
However until the government sees what is wrong then those with south facing roofs on there houses can it seems make some real savings. And really this has nothing to do with original question.
So it would seem if a "Smart Meter" is fitted and the required current transformers are connected to the "Smart Meter" it will not matter where the PV's grid tie inverter is connected however it does raise another question.
Which way around should the MCB be fitted? Does it matter which way power is feed through a MCB? I feel it does because of the design of the anti-flash etc. In which case how can one use an existing consumer unit? Would these units no have to be fitted with their own consumer unit direct to henley block?
Not seen a smart meter yet but from what has been talked about here they will need to have inputs for at least two current transformers one for wind and one for solar since different rates and of course it would be sensible to use one grid tie inverter for both wind and solar so will need to measure on DC side so will have to be hall effect devices to work on DC and of course it will also need a voltage reference as this will vary so it will have to be a very smart meter??????
But as with most things we need an integrated approach. No good having a super train service if there are no buses to get to train station for example.
One of the big problems is today you can't buy a washing machine with hot fill because the manufactures can't claim "A" rating with hot fill.
This is seen again and again the drier with a fridge type heat exchanger is likely far better than the plain heater type because it does not suck heated air out of the house and blow it outside. But look at rating plate and ones with heaters are better.
Using radiated heat from tungsten bulbs in autumn and spring means the central heating is run for a much shorter time but again each item is looked at on its own not as a whole.
The PV panel is just another item where people are trying to fit them where they don't make sense.
I am sure in France the CO2 released making the PV panels is far greater than the CO2 released with the countries large generators.
In the UK when labour stopped the nuclear program and went with gas then things maybe are different. But micro generation and even the larger wind farms can only work while we have large power stations on stand-by to fill the fall short times and we all know more power stations like the Electric mountain in North Wales are needed if we want to have wind, wave, tide, and solar power.
Since we know the whole idea is flawed what are the chances that the government will realise this and reverse the labours rules?
For wind, tide, and even hydro power to pay it needs to have zero rated loans as in all cases the devices are designed to run more than 25 years and with the interest rates of last century as a guide then purely because of return on investment they will not pay.
However until the government sees what is wrong then those with south facing roofs on there houses can it seems make some real savings. And really this has nothing to do with original question.
So it would seem if a "Smart Meter" is fitted and the required current transformers are connected to the "Smart Meter" it will not matter where the PV's grid tie inverter is connected however it does raise another question.
Which way around should the MCB be fitted? Does it matter which way power is feed through a MCB? I feel it does because of the design of the anti-flash etc. In which case how can one use an existing consumer unit? Would these units no have to be fitted with their own consumer unit direct to henley block?
Not seen a smart meter yet but from what has been talked about here they will need to have inputs for at least two current transformers one for wind and one for solar since different rates and of course it would be sensible to use one grid tie inverter for both wind and solar so will need to measure on DC side so will have to be hall effect devices to work on DC and of course it will also need a voltage reference as this will vary so it will have to be a very smart meter??????
Whats to stop me getting a second supply fitted and an import/export meter on my original
Wire the second feed direct to first and buy leccy at 9.8 p and sell it at 41p
Infinate/constant supply this way too!
Could be a nice money earner!
By the way, some uses of PV make great sense. My land Rover has large panels fitted on its roof. Its twin battery system is always fully charged, even when left for weeks at the airport with all alarms etc on. Thus my alternator doesnt run much load when driving, hence I save diesel
Maplins 12W large cells work very well. Much better than many other cells of the same size I've used. My workshop is also lit by solar. I use all my old batteries from the Land Rover. On demand intelligent charger from mains. Large 800W inverter and 400W of Flourescents for nearly free. Charge controller was old one from the first system I built on the Landy. Also means load of fully charged batteries when the neighbours need a jump start
We have a south facing roof and pergola roof. I have considered covering these several times. But doing the sums, etc its just not economic/ If solar panel drop to about 1/3 or their current costs it would be
Should make it law though that all new builds should have all south facing roofs covered (you can get solar tiles) and tied in
Wire the second feed direct to first and buy leccy at 9.8 p and sell it at 41p
Infinate/constant supply this way too!
Could be a nice money earner!
By the way, some uses of PV make great sense. My land Rover has large panels fitted on its roof. Its twin battery system is always fully charged, even when left for weeks at the airport with all alarms etc on. Thus my alternator doesnt run much load when driving, hence I save diesel
Maplins 12W large cells work very well. Much better than many other cells of the same size I've used. My workshop is also lit by solar. I use all my old batteries from the Land Rover. On demand intelligent charger from mains. Large 800W inverter and 400W of Flourescents for nearly free. Charge controller was old one from the first system I built on the Landy. Also means load of fully charged batteries when the neighbours need a jump start
We have a south facing roof and pergola roof. I have considered covering these several times. But doing the sums, etc its just not economic/ If solar panel drop to about 1/3 or their current costs it would be
Should make it law though that all new builds should have all south facing roofs covered (you can get solar tiles) and tied in
Gosh, anyway, thanks for the diagram pasty. Whilst I too have reservations and hopes for the future, your question was simply about using an existing CU with a spare way. Given your description and the diagram, then I still don't see how you can put power into an existing CU without having problems with matching cycles if nothing else. I would have expected that the two power supplies need a joint terminus which would syncronise the inverter with the mains before supplying the CU or exporting. Or have I missed something?
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