Soundbar purchase (a general enquiry)

[Lucky Luke]

There are even ways around that - a deaf aid loop around the room where the TV is located.



I have exceptional hearing, when it comes to hearing noise, but I have always had slight problems where it comes to picking out speech where there is lots of background noise. Modern TV programs seem to include lots of too loud background noise, bangs and crashes. You turn the volume up to hear the speech more clearly, then suddenly their are far too loud bangs and crashes, or the ads come on.

I must say I am surprised you don't find the LG audio adequate, my sets turned up are quite clear and deafeningly painful.

My hearing is similar to yours then, Harry. It is exceptionally good, like yours, with regard to hearing. However, background noise does make it very difficult to discern what people are saying, even though they are heard. With regard to the deaf aid loop, that is for the time when the sound-bar business has been sorted.
L.L.

 

[Lucky Luke]

The information you have on HDMI is incomplete. When the so kettle is marked ARC on both devices then it provides a link from a TV to a sound bar for audio.

Hah, Lucid: The penny has dropped! The "so kettle" is a typo, isn't it? I suppose that you intended to say was "socket".
L.L.

 

[Lucid]

Lucid, forgive me, but I don't understand the terms you are using. What is the "so kettle"?. I have given all the information that I could, taken off the rear of the set. Are you implying that it (the information moulded on the rear of the set) is misleading in some way? If you can, will you kindly state whether this set does support an HDMI connection after all, based on what I have reported? This is why I mentioned the HDMI ports, in case I wrongly thought that an "in" port could not also be used as an out port. I really need to know for sure.
L.L.

So kettle.. laughing. It's a typo. Should be socket.

Re: info. What I am saying is your info on HDMI sockets is correct for standard HDMI sockets, but incomplete for HDMI sockets marked "HDMI ARC". They have some extra functionality that you don't seem to be aware of, even though I have shown you a picture of a HDMI ARC socket and described its functionality with regard to an audio connection between the TV and a sound bar.

HDMI ARC on a TV is just an input for picture, but can operate as either an input or an output for audio depending on circumstances.

Edit to add:

There is also an optical cable port, which I am assuming is intended for a sound-bar connection. That's a pity, as I understand that optical is not as good sound as HDMI.

You wrote "optical is not as good sound as HDMI". When it comes to TV audio via HDMI ARC, that assumption or piece of information is incorrect.

HDMI ARC and Optical can and do deliver exactly the same quality. Digital stereo (known as PCM) is precisely the same whether the signal travels by Optical or HDMI ARC. The same is true of Dolby Digital, the lossy discrete multichannel sound format used on HD TV channels, streaming, DVDs and downloads. There's not one iota of difference.

HDMI ARC does support a more advanced surround format called Dolby Digital Plus. This is for a version of the latest surround format called Dolby Atmos where sound comes from above as well as from the sides. Optical could support that, but the powers that be decided to limit it just to a HDMI connection.

Direct HDMI (not the ARC version) such as the connection from a Blu-ray player or some other source with HD audio does have the potential to improve over what Optical can manage. However, this depends almost entirely on the audio from the source.

 

[Lucky Luke]

So kettle.. laughing. It's a typo. Should be socket.

Re: info. What I am saying is your info on HDMI sockets is correct for standard HDMI sockets, but incomplete for HDMI sockets marked "HDMI ARC". They have some extra functionality that you don't seem to be aware of, even though I have shown you a picture of a HDMI ARC socket and described its functionality with regard to an audio connection between the TV and a sound bar.

HDMI ARC on a TV is just an input for picture, but can operate as either an input or an output for audio depending on circumstances.

Edit to add:


You wrote "optical is not as good sound as HDMI". When it comes to TV audio via HDMI ARC, that assumption or piece of information is incorrect.

HDMI ARC and Optical can and do deliver exactly the same quality. Digital stereo (known as PCM) is precisely the same whether the signal travels by Optical or HDMI ARC. The same is true of Dolby Digital, the lossy discrete multichannel sound format used on HD TV channels, streaming, DVDs and downloads. There's not one iota of difference.

HDMI ARC does support a more advanced surround format called Dolby Digital Plus. This is for a version of the latest surround format called Dolby Atmos where sound comes from above as well as from the sides. Optical could support that, but the powers that be decided to limit it just to a HDMI connection.

Direct HDMI (not the ARC version) such as the connection from a Blu-ray player or some other source with HD audio does have the potential to improve over what Optical can manage. However, this depends almost entirely on the audio from the source.

Lucid, thanks for being so patient, and explaining things so well. Things are beginning to fall into place, now. I shall look at the Denon sound-bar that you mention (the one that learns to follow the TV handset control), as that is a great improvement on having separate handsets. Also, it has both optical and HDMI-arc. If there happened to be any trouble when using HDMI (I have looked at some other threads, and it seems as if there could be), I could fall back on Optical, since it has both. It will depend on the price, of course. For now, enough information has been provided to give me confidence to buy. I don't know how people managed before these on-line forums were available! Thanks, Lucid, and thanks to everyone else!
L.L.

 

[Lucky Luke]

Lucid, (or anyone else that happens to be able to reply), I looked at the Denon DHT-S416 soundbar that you recommended (the price of which, you had stated — I had forgotten), and saw that though the price was fine by me, it has a separate sub-woofer, which would not suit the very limited space on our stand. Nor would I want it to be mounted on a wall. The reason for my posting again is to ask whether you (or anyone else) know of a sound-bar that is obtainable in the UK for up to £250.00, that has a built-in sub-woofer, that is not wider than 90cm and that is able to "learn" to use the TV handset for moderating its volume.

Thanks in hopes of some information, you buffs.
L.L.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

You know if you get a bluetooth subwoofer it goes anywhere else in the room right? eg behind the sofa or whatever. A cable one can go anywhere within reach of the cable.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

it has a separate sub-woofer, which would not suit the very limited space on our stand. Nor would I want it to be mounted on a wall.

The sub can go anywhere, it doesn't have to go near, or next to the main unit. It is not clear, whether the unit could or would not work without the sub?

 

[Lucky Luke]

The sub can go anywhere, it doesn't have to go near, or next to the main unit. It is not clear, whether the unit could or would not work without the sub?

OK Harry, I take your point. There are various considerations for me in this matter, one of which is how to get my wife on side, if I rearrange things on the "TV stand" (this is a piece of furniture custom-made by me years ago, so it is not just a TV stand —it also displays ornaments, framed photos etc., and I need to be very diplomatic). Ha, my wife is not as bothered about technical solutions as she is about the appearance of things! I shall have to tread carefully for all kinds of reasons, so it will be some time before a decision is made about which sound-bar to buy. It has been quite an achievement for me to get my wife to agree that we obtain a sound-bar. Even she agrees that the sound quality of the new TV is not satisfactory.
L.L.

 

[Lucid]

Lucid, (or anyone else that happens to be able to reply), I looked at the Denon DHT-S416 soundbar that you recommended (the price of which, you had stated — I had forgotten), and saw that though the price was fine by me, it has a separate sub-woofer, which would not suit the very limited space on our stand. Nor would I want it to be mounted on a wall. The reason for my posting again is to ask whether you (or anyone else) know of a sound-bar that is obtainable in the UK for up to £250.00, that has a built-in sub-woofer, that is not wider than 90cm and that is able to "learn" to use the TV handset for moderating its volume.

Thanks in hopes of some information, you buffs.
L.L.

Hmm.... built-in subwoofers. There's a can of worms.

Just as the portable transistor radio never sounded as rich in tone as the bigger speakers of a home stereo,

then it should stand to reason that a sound bar which might only be a couple of inches tall and maybe 3" deep is going to be limited on the size of the bass speaker drivers it can accommodate.

Typically, they are 2", 2.5" or 3" in diameter.

Contrast that with a sound bar with a separate subwoofer,

housing 5.5"~6" bass driver

and it shouldn't be too difficult to guess which will produce a richer tone.

Naturally though not everyone can find space for the sub, and that's fine so long as the expectations are adjusted accordingly.

There are some tricks that are commonly used to help bolster the bass output from smaller drivers. Bass porting is now pretty-much universally employed. It can't make the sound significantly deeper than the driver size can manage on its own. But it can add a little more power to the sound and at a frequency just below where the bass from these small drivers would normally tail off.

With all this in mind, then I'd recommend the Yamaha SR-C20A. It's at £169 from the RicherSound site.

Key points in relation to your 'wanted' list

"No separate subwoofer" - that's fine. The SR-C20A has no separate subwoofer
"Not wider than 90cm" - that's fine. The SR-C20A is 60cm wide
"Has an optical input" - that's fine. The SR-C20A actually has two optical inputs.
"Has a HDMI input with ARC" - that's fine. The SR-C20A has a HDMI ARC input - and before you ask, yes, it's compatible with the TV's HDMI ARC socket. All HDMI ARC connections are compatible with each other. You require no more clarification on this point. This is the belt and braces answer.

"Makes dialogue easier to hear" - that's fine. The SR-C20A has a feature called Clear Voice. This helps with dialogue.
"Has a remote learning feature" - No, it doesn't. But you don't need that when running an ARC connection. The TV takes control of the sound bar for power On/Off, and for volume control including mute. Learning was only required when the connection to the TV was by optical. There is no reason for you to reject the SR-C20A.

The deal sweetener is that Amazon has the Yamaha SR-C20A at a special price of £119.95. The sale page linked HERE calls it the C20A in the page headline. Read down to the specs though and you'll see the full model name is given: SR-C20A. This is the same model as the RicherSound site, it's just at a much cheaper price.

Whether you buy from Amazon at £119, or Richers at £169, or you manage to find a retailer charging the full list price of £229, you will still need to buy a HDMI lead. This Amazon Basics HDMI lead that supports HDMI ARC will do you just fine. LINK Buy it at the same time you order the sound bar.


That's it. Job done. All you need do now is place a couple of orders.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

then it should stand to reason that a sound bar which might only be a couple of inches tall and maybe 3" deep is going to be limited on the size of the bass speaker drivers it can accommodate.

Tiny speakers seem to have come on in leaps and bounds since those days. The speakers in my LG sets, are much smaller than you would ever find in an early, small transistor radio - yet they are able to really blast out the sound, and not too bad on the base notes.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Alright Harry, next stop the hearing aid centre .....

 

[Lucky Luke]

Hmm.... built-in subwoofers. There's a can of worms.

Just as the portable transistor radio never sounded as rich in tone as the bigger speakers of a home stereo,

View attachment 309193

then it should stand to reason that a sound bar which might only be a couple of inches tall and maybe 3" deep is going to be limited on the size of the bass speaker drivers it can accommodate.

View attachment 309197

Typically, they are 2", 2.5" or 3" in diameter.

View attachment 309201

View attachment 309212

Contrast that with a sound bar with a separate subwoofer,

View attachment 309194

housing 5.5"~6" bass driver

View attachment 309196

and it shouldn't be too difficult to guess which will produce a richer tone.

Naturally though not everyone can find space for the sub, and that's fine so long as the expectations are adjusted accordingly.

There are some tricks that are commonly used to help bolster the bass output from smaller drivers. Bass porting is now pretty-much universally employed. It can't make the sound significantly deeper than the driver size can manage on its own. But it can add a little more power to the sound and at a frequency just below where the bass from these small drivers would normally tail off.

With all this in mind, then I'd recommend the Yamaha SR-C20A. It's at £169 from the RicherSound site.

Key points in relation to your 'wanted' list

"No separate subwoofer" - that's fine. The SR-C20A has no separate subwoofer
"Not wider than 90cm" - that's fine. The SR-C20A is 60cm wide
"Has an optical input" - that's fine. The SR-C20A actually has two optical inputs.
"Has a HDMI input with ARC" - that's fine. The SR-C20A has a HDMI ARC input - and before you ask, yes, it's compatible with the TV's HDMI ARC socket. All HDMI ARC connections are compatible with each other. You require no more clarification on this point. This is the belt and braces answer.
View attachment 309214

"Makes dialogue easier to hear" - that's fine. The SR-C20A has a feature called Clear Voice. This helps with dialogue.
"Has a remote learning feature" - No, it doesn't. But you don't need that when running an ARC connection. The TV takes control of the sound bar for power On/Off, and for volume control including mute. Learning was only required when the connection to the TV was by optical. There is no reason for you to reject the SR-C20A.

The deal sweetener is that Amazon has the Yamaha SR-C20A at a special price of £119.95. The sale page linked HERE calls it the C20A in the page headline. Read down to the specs though and you'll see the full model name is given: SR-C20A. This is the same model as the RicherSound site, it's just at a much cheaper price.

Whether you buy from Amazon at £119, or Richers at £169, or you manage to find a retailer charging the full list price of £229, you will still need to buy a HDMI lead. This Amazon Basics HDMI lead that supports HDMI ARC will do you just fine. LINK Buy it at the same time you order the sound bar.


That's it. Job done. All you need do now is place a couple of orders.

Lucid, you amaze me with your patience in explaining things (all the typing, and the added graphics!), also in doing the searching for me. All I could reasonable expect, now, is for you to order the two items and pay for them for me! However, since that seems a bit too much to ask, even of you, I shall do as you say, following the links you give. I mean, it would be foolish not to do that, and still soldier on, expecting to find something better and that fits all my demands. All that you tell me is a tremendous relief. I'm very grateful — really!

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Alright Harry, next stop the hearing aid centre .....

For ???

 

[Lucid]

Tiny speakers seem to have come on in leaps and bounds since those days. The speakers in my LG sets, are much smaller than you would ever find in an early, small transistor radio - yet they are able to really blast out the sound, and not too bad on the base notes.

That's true. They have. I remember hearing the Philips Shoqbox PSS110 twenty-odd years ago when I worked for Philips.

I was impressed by what these little 1"~1.5" could do. Some of it was bass porting. Some was down to making the drivers have a bigger excursion (Xmax). Creating sound is about moving air. If you can't make the piston a bigger diameter then the alternative is to increase the stroke. Then there was the change to Class D amps; smaller and more power efficient than a conventional transformer design.

What was also involved was something called psychoacoustics. (Yes, that's really a thing.)

We're sort of familiar with the idea that MP3 reduces file space by throwing away what the algorithm thinks will be less noticeable parts of some bit of digitised music. Psychoacoustics works on a similar principle but for sound as it's playing. The human brain is remarkable at filling in gaps in information. Here we have an abstract drawing. It's just a few lines on your screen, but your mind makes something familiar from it.

The speaker in an old transistor radio was a simpler device, and it wasn't encased in a way that would assist the efficiency or boost the output. The transistor amps weren't as efficient, so they'd run into distortion quite a lot earlier than modern gear. There were none of the tricks used by digital signal processing.

All of that said, there's still a limit to what can be done with small speaker drivers.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

The speaker in an old transistor radio was a simpler device, and it wasn't encased in a way that would assist the efficiency or boost the output.

Yep, I remember the trick to boost the output, with a simple cardboard tube, in front of the speaker