Spur feeding a ring in the kitchen

[nclegeorge]

We are having a new kitchen being installed now. The old electrics were a mess with spurs off spurs.
I asked the electrician to remedy this by putting a ring main in the kitchen. This he has done but the ring is fed from a spur from the ceiling to a double socket which branches off to the ring. There are 3 double sockets and a spur off this ring, the latter for the dishwasher.
I assume that the spur comes from the existing down stairs ring in the ceiling.
I had expected for the existing down stairs ring to be extended but that is not the case.
Is the spur feeding a ring acceptable?
Should the spur be fused?
Thanks for any advice.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I asked the electrician to remedy this by putting a ring main in the kitchen.

Was he an electrician, or a kitchen fitter?

This he has done but the ring is fed from a spur from the ceiling to a double socket which branches off to the ring. There are 3 double sockets and a spur off this ring, the latter for the dishwasher.
I assume that the spur comes from the existing down stairs ring in the ceiling.

Are you sure? Assumptions are not a good way to design, or to assess someone's design.

The guy might have installed a "lollipop", which although unusual (and probably perverse in this case), isn't necessarily unsafe.

Do you have a new circuit originating at the CU, which you did not before? Or does turning off the downstairs ring knock out the kitchen sockets?

Can you photograph or scan the Electrical Installation Certificate he gave you?

Is the spur feeding a ring acceptable?

If it really is a sour from a ring, then absolutely not.

Should the spur be fused?

Yes, from a safety POV, but then all of those sockets will be limited to 13A, which is almost certainly no good.

If it is as you assume, then it has been improperly done - it is unsafe, and therefore illegal, and it is an inadequate design, it does not comply with the Wiring Regulations, so any certificate claiming it does is false.

If it is as you assume, do not pay until they have come back and done it properly.

 

[nclegeorge]

He is/was an electrician used by the kitchen installer - his card says "Part P approved"
The work is only at first fix for the moment so no cert as yet.
Turning off the downstairs ring turns the kitchen ring off
Have not parted with monies as yet
Can anyone quote me from the Regs which parts are contravened.
Thanks

 

[nclegeorge]

Should have asked "what is a lollipop" apart from the obvious.
and is it allowed?

 

[ericmark]

If the spur from the ceiling is in 2.5 mm² then there is a problem, if however in 4 or 6 mm² likely no problem, what we are considering is a 32A supply could damage 2.5 mm² cable but not 6 mm² cable.

There are some other issues, if that 6 mm² goes back to the consumer unit, or comes from a near central point of the ring then it is OK, although the latter likely does not fit into the rules that allow a ring, but if it is taken from the first or last ¼ of the ring then it could overload the short leg of the ring.

 

[ericmark]

A lollipop system is where the ring final is remote from the consumer unit and a single heavy cable is taken from the consumer unit to where the ring is, then standard 2.5mm² cable forms the ring from that point. Often a cooker connection unit is used to connect the two small cables to the large supply cable.

So the thick cable is the stick of the lollipop and the thinner cable the loop around the edge of the lollipop.

 

[nclegeorge]

Thanks for the information.
Regret that the spur from the ceiling is 2.5 sq mm.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

He is/was an electrician used by the kitchen installer - his card says "Part P approved"

Part P is a requirement of the Building Regulations.

It is not a qualification, it is not an approval process.

"Part P approved" makes as much sense as a builder saying "I am Part A approved". http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/2214/schedule/1/made

The work is only at first fix for the moment so no cert as yet.

So there's time for this to be put right.

Turning off the downstairs ring turns the kitchen ring off

Which implies that the new stuff has been connected up etc, so firstly it's not at 1st fix stage, and secondly it should not have been energised until after it had been tested.

Have not parted with monies as yet

You should not have to check up on the electrician's work, nor have to tell him how to do it properly.

Tell the kitchen company that they will not get one penny for anything until they ensure that the electrical work is done by somebody competent. Not re-done by the dangerously incompetent clown they have used so far, in whom you no longer have any confidence - by someone new who actually knows what he is doing.

Can anyone quote me from the Regs which parts are contravened.

433.1.1

Tell the kitchen installer that his "electrician" is welcome to come here to argue in favour of what he has done.


BUT BUT BUT BUT...


One final check re all of this - what is the rating of the circuit breaker for the circuit?

 

[nclegeorge]

You are right it is not first fix - loose terminology on my part. The ring main parts and the offending spur are live, although not plastered up as yet.
Some electrics, e.g. cooker, are at first fix, i.e. not energised at all.

The downstairs ring main has a MCB Square D refs 32B6 and B32.

Thanks to all.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

In that case everything everybody has said about several sockets being on an unfused spur applies.

Do not let that electrician back into your house, no matter how much the kitchen installer says you have to. He totally f****d up when he was doing what he thought he should - how might he behave when told by his customer that he was wrong and must do it again? If the kitchen installer kicks off, point out that he is free to walk away without getting paid.

 

[deadshort]

Before you go in "all guns blazing" just check that there is not another unconnected 'leg' of a yet to be formed ring! He may have done a temp connection from one 'leg' just to get power on.
Are there any sockets on adjoining walls that he could be intending to connect to?

Do want you end up with egg on your face !

Regards,

DS

 

[nclegeorge]

Yes there are other sockets and have vetted them for another feed but cannot see it.

However the electrician may say that he is not finished so will give him every opportunity, when we speak, to be honest and above board. It may be a genuine oversight or a temp feed for now.

I do have to say that his workmanship, proactive approach, cleanliness, at least to me, generally seems first class.

Will keep you posted

 

[nclegeorge]

Well I have spoken to the electrician on the phone and he assures me that we have a continuous ring.

He says that there is an another cable in addition to the alleged spur from the downstairs ring in the ceiling. This was buried in the wall and used by him as another leg for the extension in the kitchen. This added cable is routed from below into the dishwasher isolating switch so that me looking for cables from the ceiling was a totally misleading.

In the opened up gaps in the wall plaster I can count the various cables in and out of sockets, isolating switch etc and this could be true as there is a cable unaccounted for but obviously I cannot prove that.

He will visit to explain.

Any simple test that I can carry out to prove or disprove this theory.

Seems I could have had egg on face.

Thanks to all for the valued input

 

[deadshort]

Do you have a valid reason to doubt this man ? If not, i would suggest you leave him to do his job

DS

 

[nclegeorge]

Yes you are right, I will leave him to do his job
- it is just that I have been "burnt" too many times in the past.

Thanks