Storage Heaters. Replace? Or another alternative.

[dishman]

I have a small flat (2 bedroom) which I rent out with storage heaters which were installed circa 2006.

They work perfectly fine and while they are recent-ish installs, they are the standard manual control type.

This means that the EPC is impacted a lot, an E I think. The rest of the flat has modern windows and cavity wall insulation, so there is little scope elsewhere for upgrade.

At some point it seems some EPC upgrades will need to be made. Upgrading to a LOT20 or HHR seems to be an option for an improved EPC score.

However, am I correct in that, this is all really a bit of smoke and mirrors.

Other than better heat retention, and presumably better controls. They can't be any more efficient for an equivalent KWH rating, can they?

Unless the digital controls are that much more intuitive that they store the required amount of heat in a more efficient manner? (some kind of weather compensation?)

Am I missing anything?

Another option is to install gas, of which a mains supply is available to connect to. However if gas is going the way of the dinosaur for new installs. Would I be shelling out for little long term benefit. Especially if the government decide to flip the cost of tariffs and slowly make gas unpalatable.

I did read this thread which has similar musings:
https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/dimplex-quantum-or-creda-trse.574511/

But I just wanted to be sure what the actual gains would be, other than a better EPC rating.

 

[ericmark]

The EPC rating is clearly simple guess work, I note I have an EPC rating for my old house, which was different to my father-in-laws old house, which was next door but one, exactly same design and had the same energy saving measures installed, I have never commissioned the survey it gives the name of the guy who claims to have done it with a Wigan area code for the phone, so some 50 miles away, seems unlikely I would ever go so far afield. It seems it runs out May 2026.

It says

Main heating Boiler and radiators, mains gas Good
Main heating control Programmer, room thermostat and TRVs Good
Hot water Gas multipoint Average
Lighting Low energy lighting in 71% of fixed outlets Very good

How they new that I don't know without going into the house, the main heating was gas, a gas fire in living room, there was central heating installed by me some 35 years ago, there were 3 TRV's fitted most radiators had no control, one was a Myson so had a thermostat controlled fan. The boiler was gas, but not efficient it required a pilot flame, and not condensing, the hot water was a separate boiler a main 7, again had a pilot flame, it did modulate but was not condensing. All lighting was LED or fluorescent, so all was low energy. The front and back doors were the worse part of house, massive drafts due to age of install.

So it would seem the EPC is a lottery and has no real bearing to the real energy efficiency of the home.

In real terms energy used for heating electric must be better than gas, as gas always needs a flue, so some energy must be lost, money wise gas better than electric as gas is cheaper.

I looked at my brother-in-laws heat storage, it used two large tanks, some thing like this

they were very well insulated so when heating switched off they would stay hot for at least two weeks, the main reason for them was to combine electric, solar, wood burning, and LPG gas into one central heating system. But they were heavy, so as original fitments the house was designed to take the weight, but as a after thought it would need a lot of structural changes to take the weight, they were on the upper floor due to having a wood burner, can't rely on electric to ensure the water is cooled in wood burner, needs to be thermal syphon. If using oil, gas, or electric they could be on ground floor.

However when he moved he looked at installing in new house, cost was going to be some where around the £25k mark, so he did not fit it.

The problem with off peak is how to store the power without losses, which means massive insulation, also to allow for wind and sun to alter which rooms are cooled most, you really need a central heat store so heat can be distributed as required. There are a number of methods to store energy, there were experiments with latent heat, where a substance changes state, so does not get super hot, seems it failed but don't know why. So we have iron bricks, water, and battery packs, to date main one seems to be iron bricks, there is some clay or concrete in them, but mainly they are made of iron ore.

At around 900°C keeping the heat within the unit is a problem, it can be controlled to some extent, but in the main it means to reduce energy used it needs to predict the weather, so it knows the night before how much to store, I use a Nest Gen 3 thermostat which has all sorts of algorithms to save energy, but all switched off, when the local EE mast had wind damage my central heating went to Eco mode as it did not sense my mobile phone was at home, so yet another feature switched off.

In the main we today look for speed, the faster a room can be heated, the less lead time is required, so we could fit a combination of inferred heaters for fast recovery and convector heaters to maintain the temperature, and that would be the most economic use of energy unless using heat pumps. But not likely the cheapest. Cheap heating and low energy heating are not the same.

So as it stands likely gas central heating is the best option. As to future who knows, as it stands most homes have between a 60 and 100 amp supply, with EV charging points and all electric heating we will likely need to double the supply to the home, the national grid was started late 30's and completed in late 00's so judging on past performance we can expect to see EV vehicles of 90% of users around 2090.

Near the end of second world war a new socket was developed with the idea of electrically heating the home. So since 1950 we have used the 13A socket and the ring final, however we reduced the cable size used when we went metric, and also reduced the cooling of the fuse when we added insulation on the live pins, so don't think it would work now, but that was the original idea.

So for a better EPC best option is a back hander to the inspector. From my old house clearly they are drive by inspections anyway as he was never admitted into the house. I was surprised to find the house had an EPC I thought I had to pay to get one, but looked for father-in-laws house and found my house built 1978 had one.

 

[flameport]

However, am I correct in that, this is all really a bit of smoke and mirrors.
Other than better heat retention, and presumably better controls. They can't be any more efficient for an equivalent KWH rating, can they?

Correct.
An electric heater which uses resistive elements will have the same heat output regardless of what type it is. kWh in = kWh out. Claims about better efficiency are all lies. Claims about 100% efficiency are also lies, as they always refer to 'point of use' rather than considering where the electricity actually came from.

There are some gains to be had with better controls, which will restrict the amount of energy in, and therefore restrict the same amount of energy out. That's what LOT20 heaters are for - better designed so they supposedly retain the heat better, and there is more control over how much heat is stored and released by use of better insulation and a fan to move air over the heated bricks. They also have a separate convector heater in the front to cover up the fact that they don't store as much heat as older types and as that runs on peak rate electricity, whatever savings were claimed are blown away.

In many cases they will provide better control over heating, and will be better for homes that are not heated 24 hours a day. However so would any other cheapo electric convector or fan heater.

The gains are a better EPC rating, which may be the difference between being allowed to actually let the property or not.
The financial costs are substantial, as is the environmental impact of throwing away perfectly good older storage heaters.

Gas is a dead end, as installing that would cost the same or more than new storage heaters.

Heat pumps are significantly more efficient, however are the most expensive to install by far and in a flat will inevitably have other problems.

 

[dishman]

Looks like sticking with the 2006 storage heaters is a good option for now. I'll have to look at other options for the EPC.

Out of interest (on a related note).

For a standard (day rate) heater. For something that looks vaguely like a normal wall hung radiator, are the options below the cheapest options with modern controls?

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Heating_Index/Elnur_Designer_Rad_Dry/index.html

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Heating_Index/Oil_Filled_Radiators/index.html

While an equivalent rated Argos heater will be just as efficient and much cheaper it seems hard to find something that looks respectable on a wall as a radiator rather than just a portable rad on wheels.

 

[SUNRAY]

I went through changing NSH's in a rental property last year. When the bedroom NSH stopped working my tenant found a fan heater to be far more effective than the NSH as there was never enough heat left late in the evening. Consulting my EPC inspector I settled on one of these in the bedroom:
https://www.rexel.co.uk/uki/root-ca...20-Wall-Mounted-3kw-Willow-White/p/2501091135
Price in Feb 2021 £153 + VAT. According to the calculations I only required 1KW but the price difference was very small (something like £20), I intended disconnecting element(s) with a view that it became a spare for the future. In the end I left it running full power for efficacy. Tenant loves it, says the room warms quicker than the fan heater.

 

[JohnD]

if you just want to heat a bedroom at night, and are using a duvet, and the room is not damp, an oil-filled electric radiator is very suitable. Obviously turn it off in the day, especially if you are out at work. If you have economy 7 or similar off-peak tariff, a lot of the electricity used will be at the cheap rate.

The LO20 looks better, if you don't mind paying for looks.

I formerly had a 2kW heater, but an 800W is actually suifficient

An electric blanket is also very economical at night

It will depend on draughtproofing and insulation, though. Bedroom windows should be opened in the morning.

The trouble with storage heaters is that they give off heat during the day and run down by evening. Quite suitable for people who are at home all day, and go to bed early, including many pensioners and stay-at-home parents of young children; unsuitable for people who are out all day.

 

[JohnW2]

... I settled on one of these in the bedroom:
https://www.rexel.co.uk/uki/root-category/Heating-&-Ventilation/Electric-Heating/Panel-Heaters/Panel-Heater-Digital-Programmable-Electronic-LOT20-Wall-Mounted-3kw-Willow-White/p/2501091135 ..... Tenant loves it, says the room warms quicker than the fan heater.

It may well be 'suitable' for s bedroom, but since it does not appear to have a fan, is it really credible that it can warm a room "quicker than a fan heater"?

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

It may well be 'suitable' for s bedroom, but since it does not appear to have a fan, is it really credible that it can warm a room "quicker than a fan heater"?

Kind Regards, John

In this I can only repeat what my tenant says.
It's a fairly small room so the problem may be finding a place where the heater is not pointing at a surface and also not in the way.

 

[JohnW2]

In this I can only repeat what my tenant says. ... It's a fairly small room so the problem may be finding a place where the heater is not pointing at a surface and also not in the way.

Practical issues of that type may well influence preference for different types of heater, but that's not what I was talking about.

As you presumably understand, my point was (and remains) that I can't see how heating by convection alone (with no fan) can possibly heat any space "more quickly" than does a heater that does include a fan.

Kind
Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

Practical issues of that type may well influence preference for different types of heater, but that's not what I was talking about.

As you presumably understand, my point was (and remains) that I can't see how heating by convection alone (with no fan) can possibly heat any space "more quickly" than does a heater that does include a fan.

Kind
Regards, John

I'm not disagreeing with you in the slightest. I believe the biggest advantage of a fan heater is it helps with getting heat lower down (before it rises)

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

So for a better EPC best option is a back hander to the inspector. From my old house clearly they are drive by inspections anyway as he was never admitted into the house. I was surprised to find the house had an EPC I thought I had to pay to get one, but looked for father-in-laws house and found my house built 1978 had one.

My place has an EPC. built mid 50's and certainly no one has been in it. The EPC details bear no resemblance at all to the place, they just check one house pre-sale and assume all the homes in the street are the same, incredibly pointless.

 

[SUNRAY]

My place has an EPC. built mid 50's and certainly no one has been in it. The EPC details bear no resemblance at all to the place, they just check one house pre-sale and assume all the homes in the street are the same, incredibly pointless.

Did you commission it? How else did you obtain it? Have you requested a proper inspection?

 

[Diver Fred]

Firstly I hope you have a current EPC now as you shouldn't be letting without one.

I let a rural cottage, built 1930's, 2 beds, recent - 1960 - addition of a bathroom.

Make reference to the EPC you have and take note of the recommendations. If your EPC is not recent - 2019 or newer, find an assessor who will inspect your flat, ideally in your presence, and give you a report BUT not register it. EPC (SAP) assessment items change quite frequently and not always in favour of the building owner. That will give best guidance on todays standards.

As for heating what follows is what I did.
I had an EPC done but not registered, took note of the advice to raise the EPC.
Added secondary glazing (essentially internal opening lights).
In the cottage main room I changed the NSH that was around 30 years old (Creda Slimline model) for new Dimplex Quantum HHS model. That involved adding a second 24 hour power supply to the NSH. Disconnected the panel heater in the bedrooms. Made sure the landing NSH was operating at full efficiency (previous tenant, a 'fiddler' had disconnected one element).
18 months later had the EPC assessor return to now do a complete assessment. The changes I made raised the EPC from a 'F' to an 'E'. In the intervening 18 months the Secondary glazing addition went down, the solid walls efficiency went up and the changes to NSH made a sufficient improvement to get to an 'E'. I've now had External wall insulation added which using figures on the Registered EPC should raise the EPC grade to a high 'D'. Changes to the window insulation (essentially complete internal casements with 'Heritage Double glazing) will gain me the extra points for a 'C'.

HHS HSH's are output controllable but input controllable - that affected the tenants heating costs, But are regarded by EPC standards as better than original NHS's. Up to then the tenant had not been running the NSH at full heat although not working (on ability grounds then, now retired) as their costs changed I helped for a short time whilst they got themselves accustomed to the changes.

 

[JohnW2]

I'm not disagreeing with you in the slightest. I believe the biggest advantage of a fan heater is it helps with getting heat lower down (before it rises)

Yes - or, at least, 'getting heat lower down' much more quickly (even without a fan, the temp 'low down' will eventually rise, albeit not to quite the same temp as at 'the top' of the room).

Kind Regards, John

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Did you commission it? How else did you obtain it? Have you requested a proper inspection?

It was some house selling site, where you can check what your home would be worth, were you selling it.