Efect on EPC rating of installing High Heat Retention Storage heaters in place of 'warm air electricaire' system.

[bullethead123]

Hi,
I am considering buying a flat which has an EPC rating of 68 (D). The EPC was carried out 9 yrs ago and I am concerned that values attributed to the variables involved may have become more stringent.


https://find-energy-certificate.service.gov.uk/energy-certificate/8407-6422-6959-9740-7922

The flat has cavity wall insulation and simple panel heaters at the moment, not the 'warm air electricair' system mentioned on the EPC. Could anyone advise me on the likely impact on the EPC rating if I were to install High Heat Retention storage heaters?

Also, what would be the likely cost? I think I would only need 2 such heaters. One in the lounge and one in the bedroom.

As the flat originally had a 'warm air electricaire' system, am I right in thinking it must have had an economy 7 meter at some point and that reinstating this would be relatively simple and cheap?

Thanks, Chris

 

[ericmark]

The energy rating certificate seems to bare no relationship to the energy used, it seems they are a tick the box exercise, when I came to sell last house, I went on the internet to see what houses in the same street ratings were, and found I had one, I had never paid for one to be done, it was very close to other houses in the street, and no one had been around the house to inspect. It was clearly a drive by job.

In real terms any resistive electric heater is the same efficiency when used 24/7. There are three ways to electrically heat the home, heat pump, inferred, and resistive. And to reduce energy used the main way is only heat as and when required, if we ignore the heat pump, then the lower the air temperature the less heat we loose, so a combination of inferred and resistive is likely the best, the resistive gives a back ground heat, and inferred increases the heat when rooms are occupied with people not moving around, i.e. in the evening, the simple way to do this is replace all the lights with tungsten during the winter, so we get inferred heat when lights are turned on, but to do this reduces the energy ratings so clearly the energy rating certificate is not fit for purpose.

If we accept it is a government ploy to get us to use more expensive energy rather than use cheap gas or oil, then it is likely to change at the drop of a hat as the government changes what they want us to spend money on.

I know with this house the best option to save energy is to swap window frames so they will take the thicker double glassed units, and also reduce drafts, but it would not make any difference to the certificate, windows are already double glassed just not very good double glassed units.

 

[Diver Fred]

9 year old EPC - I can assure you the rating will have changed and unlikely for the better.

 

[flameport]

likely impact on the EPC rating

What effect things have depends on the particular versions of the software used to create the EPCs and whether certain things are considered favourable by it, or even exist in it's options.
It has very little to do with how efficient things are. It's supposed to be based on operating costs for the building, but that's often fiction as well.
The entire EPC system needs massive reform.

it must have had an economy 7 meter at some point and that reinstating this would be relatively simple and cheap?

It would have. Whether it's simple or cheap depends on what's been done to it since.
Originally there would have been a separate fusebox / consumer unit or at least part of one, with dedicated circuit(s) for the E7 and a separate meter or dual rate meter for it.
They may still exist, or the whole lot could have been removed.
E7 in general is bordering on the obsolete, and is not something to be recommended for any new installation.

 

[bullethead123]

Thanks for he replies.
It does seem a very nebulous exercise Eric, I've been through most of the 68 EPCs relating to the flats in the development I intend to buy in and the same assessor, on the same day has given different ratings for the 'warmair electricaire' system the development was built with, from 'very poor' to 'average'. Most of the assessments were done on the same day - January 6th 2014, just after cavity wall insulation was installed and the warmair system in my flat was rated as very poor. I guess the 2 panel heaters that replaced the warmair system would be rated very poor too. My question is how many points would I gain if I were to go to the expense of installing HHR storage heaters?

Flat42's EPC history is interesting, It had an EPC inspection in 2014, as all the flats did when the cavity wall insulation was fitted, but then had another in 2016 where the assessor assumed there was no cavity wall insulation (?) but stated that installing HHR storage heaters would improve things by 9 points. I guess in 2016 HHR heaters were being 'pushed' by the software. and it may be that something else is being pushed now. I agree with you Flameport that the system needs massive reform. Standardisation would be a good start. After all, all I wanna know is what does the system want me to do right at this moment in order to gain the highest rating?

Also Flameport, you say that E7 is obsolete, but isn't gas as a heating source programed to be phased out anyway? As we green our energy grid, won't lower carbon electricity be 'pushed' by the government? I'd say an E7 system, or perhaps a similar, maybe more dynamic, system where cheaper rate elctricity is supplied at odd hours depending on demand at that time could become the fashion.

I don't think there's a seperate fusebox. I think originally, the E7 supply was just one fused switch to the 'warm air electricaire' unit.

I guess I wanna know what the likely cost of installing a dual rate meter and wiring to two storage heaters would be. I've priced up the heaters themselves and they seem ridiculously expensive for what are, basically, just boxes of bricks.

 

[Alec_t]

I don't see why the type of electric heating should make any difference to the EPC rating. Energy is energy, and for a given amount of energy used the cost will be the same regardless of whether you spread its use over a short period or a long period, store it or not. The EPC should be focussing on a building's insulation and sources of heat loss.

 

[ericmark]

I agree with @Alec_t to some extent, but I know from doing heat treatment is a high hysteresis wastes energy, so in theory using a central heat store with a fan to distribute the heat as required, only ever seen one, fitted to some council houses in Flintshire, will waste less energy than a storage radiator which allows the room temperature to fluctuate, and even a simple electric fire will use less energy to the storage radiator as it can be switched off when not required.

But the problem is not how much energy is used, or how to obtain the energy at less cost, it is what the software used by the assessor rates the system at.

My father-in-law had DHW solar panels fitted, this improved the energy rating of the house, even when they never worked. They were a big con, what they did was remove the immersion heater, and so the house relied on the gas central heating boiler to heat the water, so the electric bill when down, so father-in-law thought they were working great, until he has a smart meter fitted, and the pilot flame went out on the central heating, and he got no hot water, when I was called, and found out the solar panels had never worked. But they have improved his energy rating.

 

[Alec_t]

even a simple electric fire will use less energy to the storage radiator as it can be switched off when not required.

So a simple electric fire should raise the EPC rating ???

 

[flameport]

I guess I wanna know what the likely cost of installing a dual rate meter and wiring to two storage heaters would be. I'

The meter has no financial cost, but getting one installed is likely to be a pile of problems.
2x HHR storage heaters, associated items and installation won't leave much out of £3000.

If the occupiers want to heat the flat 24/7, then some savings can be made.
If not, then it could actually cost more than the panel heaters it has now.

Storage heaters in a bedroom usually end up switched off forever.

 

[ericmark]

So a simple electric fire should raise the EPC rating ???

Who knows, they seem to have some odd ideas. The problem is getting people to see cost is not the same as energy, and economy 7 may save money, but does not save energy.

We get results like Window - Fully double glazed it does not say what the R or U rating is.

So looking at my own EPC I can gain 2 with floor insulation, 1 with all LED, 3 with solar DHW heating, 6 for electric solar panels.

The house has two EPC one for the bottom floor, and one for the upper two floors, some of the entries are daft, the upper one has no reference to improving the domestic hot water with a 80 mm jacket around the cylinder, but the lower floor does, however there is no cylinder on the lower floor, it is on the top floor, so there is no cylinder to fit the jacket. The same with the cylinder thermostat.

The last house said 7 for replacing boiler with a condensing type, but next door same style house only gains 6, and next door but one, it says how solar DHW would add a point, but it already has it.

And next door to that it says how high heat retention storage heaters will save 7 points, I was unaware anyone on the estate used them, that house is E rated, all the rest are D rated so it seems electric storage radiators have a lower rating to gas.

It also says no secondary heating, but all the estate were originally fitted with a gas fire. So all do have secondary heating.

In other words the assessor makes a guess, there seems to be very little sense to the results.

It says "Properties can be let if they have an energy rating from A to E." there has been talk about changing that, but as it stands more and more landlords are giving up, so to reduce the number of home which can be let would be daft.

 

[StephenStephen]

I thought there had to be a current EPC in place in order to sell a home, and that 'current' meant something like 3 or 4 years?

 

[JohnW2]

I thought there had to be a current EPC in place in order to sell a home, and that 'current' meant something like 3 or 4 years?

Per my understanding (never guaranteed to be correct ) .... I think they theoretically have a life of 10 years. However, although the is a requirement to have 'a current one' in order to sell a house, I don't think (same caveat!) there are any requirements in relation to 'what it says' - so it's for a prospective buyer to decide whether they want to buy the property after they've seen the cert.

kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

Yes 10 years, but they are basic just another tax.

 

[JohnW2]

Who knows, they seem to have some odd ideas. The problem is getting people to see cost is not the same as energy, and economy 7 may save money, but does not save energy.

It seems to me that, in practice, the main problem is that they have not got their ideas straight about the ('in practice') purpose to which these certificates are being put (and hence their name).

It may well be that there is an underlying interest in true energy conservation (usage reduction/minimisation) but, in the immediate practical sense, they are seemingly being used essentially as a guide to buyers and tenants in relation to energy costs. They therefore perhaps should be called "Energy Cost Certificates" or something like that

Kind Regards, John

 

[winston1]

, i.e. in the evening, the simple way to do this is replace all the lights with tungsten during the winter, so we get inferred heat when lights are turned on,

So changing a say 20w CFL to a 100w tungsten will give you an additional 80 w of infrared heat. That would not be noticeable in a typical room requiring 1 kW. P