System not fitted with any zoning valves please help

[madmaxjsy]

Hello

Jumping in.

I have been getting very large over winter EDF bills and only notice after I checked my bank account 5 months too late, 100 Euros a week, it would seem that the plumbing/heating company (French) that supplied and fitting my duel fuel central heating system has fitted no zoning valves, wired up another pump to run permanently 24/7 causing the immersion tank to boil and supply the rads 24/7.
without the other pump running the down stairs rads stay cold BTW.

Well not being a plumber I think that is what the main problem is.

Could someone please identify what is needed and where to put it to make it all work, I notice also that the thermal tank that is fitted may have been plumbed wrong too.
I have asked this company to work with me in identifying what is causing these massive EDF bills but finally got and answer from them only after I had to ask my local Mayor for help, the plumbing company just said it was normal over winter EDF bills for everyone, full stop.

I have only put a picture of the system, there is an overheat release valve not shown.

There is a LTC 100 ESBE next to the stove and a York 1" DN 25 on the line going up from the stove, apart from these there are no other restrictions and the system is all joined up like i have shown.

Tony

Untitled

• madmaxjsy
• 25 Apr 2015
• 1

 

[srhawksy]

Whats the edf bill for? gas or electric?

 

[Norcon]

You don't need a big accumulator tank for a wood stove.
Best to send the heat direct to the rads with HWC priority.

Is the stove ever fired up? How much solid fuel have you burned over the last 5 months?
Drawing looks wrong. Then again it might be right and the plumbing wrong.

 

[srhawksy]

The whole drawings wrong???

 

[madmaxjsy]

Hello

Thanks for replying.

@ srhawksy, the EDF bill is for electric.

One thing I forgot to say is that the Gretel electric c/h boiler while fitted in may last year, hasn't been turned on at all, because even though the electricity/plumbers rewired the whole house and moved the fuse boards, also getting EDF to fit a new meter at that time, failed to make sure our main fuse could handle the power drain, we have been unable to use it until at the end of February when EDF where finally asked by the c/h company to upgrade our main fuse.

So our electricity bills are for the immersion tank only.

@ Norcon, yes I have turned off the accumulator tank, complete waste of money, his insistence again.
We have I recon used about 2/3 of a tonne of coal/anthracite ovals (shipped over from England) mix with about 6 steer of wood, the stove is a fantastic piece of kit BTW, Without it we would have been in real trouble, the immersion tank got a good supply of the heat along with the up stairs rads while it was lit.

To you both, the drawing is very neat unlike the real pipes but totally accurate in it's configurations.

 

[Norcon]

Looks a right mess. Don't know where you would start other than rip it all out and start again.
His idea of "control" seems to be wire everything up 24/7. Nice.

 

[Agile]

I dont see the pump(s).

Nor do I really understand what this electricity consumption is relating to as we are told all the heat is from solid fuel. Actual consumption is kWh would be more helpful.

Post raises interesting questions about Jersey. I can only assume its still a kind of independent country but part of the UK in respect of defence and border control. I did not realise they used the Euro. Is a passport needed to travel to/from the mainland?

A long time ago I had a bank account there. I also took a day trip there by boat from France which included a coach tour and a lunch that was very good as it was planned for the French visitors on the tour. Amusingly the driver noticed us speaking English and then gave us pretty much a private and much more detailed commentary on the tour.

Tony

 

[srhawksy]

To me that system is completely wrong, the boiler should be feeding the accumulator, its solid fuel so should be gravity fed I'd say. Then from the accumulator to the h/w cylinder and the rads. These would be pumped, and controlled by zone vales.

Solid fuel cant be controlled very well so the heat from it would vary, feeding into the accumulator means a more steady temp can be taken form there.

Is the cylinder being heat by the charnwood or is it being heat by the immersion heater 24/7. What else do you have in the house?? As in electric guzzling appliances??

 

[Norcon]

Loading valves are usually controlled by flue stats. So when the fire dies down the pump shuts off quickly and doesn't cycle the entire contents of the accumulator back through the appliance. They also have a gravity feature for fail safe operation.
I dare say its not fitted.
Not that it matters as the plumbing looks wrong.

 

[madmaxjsy]

Your right Norcon, 24/7 man by all accounts.

Agile, Tony I live in France now, that's what my initial shock was when I'd seen our bank account, I'm retired BTW on an invalid pension, I was racking my brain as to WTF was causing these massive EDF bills, until I did some research online and realized the pump he had wired up to run 24/7 from the Gretel electric boiler (boiler not in use just pump) was taking out all the heat from the immersion tank, at first the immersion was turned off as the stove fed it sufficiently for my wife and I, but as we had family over and more demand for hot water the immersion was turned on, I never thought for one minute that it would be a problem, I have lived in many house's and have never seen a system quite like this one, mind you having said that, I have never lived in a duel fuel run house before.

srhawksy I made quite sure that the system was gravity fed and a feed and expansion tank was fitted by him begrudgingly at the time, in the top of a cupboard above the immersion.
As I was trying to find out what was causing the EDF bills I investigated everywhere As best as I could and discovered he had taken out the feed and expansion tank and replaced it with a large expansion vessel, he had made my system into a sealed system without even telling me, upon further inspection I see he had fitted a 100 degree pressure release valve.

At first the Thermal tank was being fed by the stove but as I struggled to get my head around what was going on I shut it down.
As the system was fitted with this 100 degree pressure release valve, I wasn't worried that it was going to blow up.
We have the normal stuff run by electricity, like fridge/freezer kettle, washing machine etc, no electric heaters BTW.

Norcon your right of cause about Loading valves, ours isn't, so another issue there.
The gravity feature for fail safe operation you talk about is still there, as the thermo syphoning feature can still take place, I hope.

Well any pointers as to where the zoning valves should be put and how the thermal store plumbed, given how this system is plumbed at the moment, I am going to ask him to correct it to your advise, otherwise it's court I feel, he is a big electric/plumbing company and I'm only little, I hope it don't go there.

 

[Norcon]

You should get a heating engineer/consultant to visit the premises and ascertain the problems and advise on the remedial work involved.
Which should be in writing.

Then you are forearmed to approach the installer.

I have detailed e-mails on my pc on one such biomass case from the client detailing full reports on the systems failings.
BRE did a free inspection approved by their senior consultant. You can contact them on [email protected]
BSRIA and IDHEE were also involved.
But mebbe jersey is outside their jurisdiction?

 

[srhawksy]

Your right Norcon, 24/7 man by all accounts.

Agile, Tony I live in France now, that's what my initial shock was when I'd seen our bank account, I'm retired BTW on an invalid pension, I was racking my brain as to WTF was causing these massive EDF bills, until I did some research online and realized the pump he had wired up to run 24/7 from the Gretel electric boiler (boiler not in use just pump) was taking out all the heat from the immersion tank, at first the immersion was turned off as the stove fed it sufficiently for my wife and I, but as we had family over and more demand for hot water the immersion was turned on, I never thought for one minute that it would be a problem, I have lived in many house's and have never seen a system quite like this one, mind you having said that, I have never lived in a duel fuel run house before.


srhawksy I made quite sure that the system was gravity fed and a feed and expansion tank was fitted by him begrudgingly at the time, in the top of a cupboard above the immersion.
As I was trying to find out what was causing the EDF bills I investigated everywhere As best as I could and discovered he had taken out the feed and expansion tank and replaced it with a large expansion vessel, he had made my system into a sealed system without even telling me, upon further inspection I see he had fitted a 100 degree pressure release valve.

At first the Thermal tank was being fed by the stove but as I struggled to get my head around what was going on I shut it down.
As the system was fitted with this 100 degree pressure release valve, I wasn't worried that it was going to blow up.
We have the normal stuff run by electricity, like fridge/freezer kettle, washing machine etc, no electric heaters BTW.

Norcon your right of cause about Loading valves, ours isn't, so another issue there.
The gravity feature for fail safe operation you talk about is still there, as the thermo syphoning feature can still take place, I hope.

Well any pointers as to where the zoning valves should be put and how the thermal store plumbed, given how this system is plumbed at the moment, I am going to ask him to correct it to your advise, otherwise it's court I feel, he is a big electric/plumbing company and I'm only little, I hope it don't go there.

Bloody hell I'd be getting him back, solid fuel sealed is a big no!

If it were me, Id have flow and return from stove to store, open vent from store to F&E tank. Then a flow out of the thermal store with a pump, after pump 2/3 zone valves 1/2 for rads (2if you want to zone upstairs-downstairs) and one to cylinder. Then obviously the returns coming back into the store.

 

[madmaxjsy]

Thanks guys.

Norcon that's smashing, although this is happening in France where I live now.
I'll contact [email protected] in the hope that they can suggest a company over here, I have contacted qualibat.com as they sent me a form to fill in asking how the firm performed but alas after two very long emails to them I received no reply, but a few days after I sent the second email to them the electric/plumbing company in question sent me an email, (a first) saying they could fit a zoning valve should I need one, I haven't responded yet as they still haven't mentioned our EDF disputes, I also contacted Gretel the company that make the electric boilers, they asked me to send some pictures then asked for a schematic (hence the one above), they said it was totally set up wrong and that the 3-4000 euros EDF bill suggested by the electric/plumbing company as normal was ridiculous, that was as far as they where prepared to go, you guys are my only hope ob1kenobi.

srhawksy "If it were me, Id have flow and return from stove to store, open vent from store to F&E tank. Then a flow out of the thermal store with a pump, after pump 2/3 zone valves 1/2 for rads (2if you want to zone upstairs-downstairs) and one to cylinder. Then obviously the returns coming back into the store."


Thanks.

Tony

 

[madmaxjsy]

I played around with the system, would this work OK?

Untitled

• madmaxjsy
• 11 May 2015
• 1

 

[madmaxjsy]

[email protected] turned up nothing other than them saying "BRE was privatised in 1997 and unfortunately, can no longer provide a free advice service. All our activities, whether research, consultancy or testing, are now provided on a fee basis to the construction industry. We are normally commissioned by building professionals, such as architects, surveyors, contractors and solicitors".

No mention of if they know anyone in France that could help with a report.
Oh well Still looking.