Tiling on chipboard floor - do I need membrane?

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Would be grateful for any advice.

We have had 2 quotes to tile about 26m2 in our new dining/kitchen room. A new chipboard floor has been put down, with underfloor heating underneath. We've had 2 quotes one for 1600 and one for 1000. The more expensive one says we should have a membrane put down first, but the cheaper says we just need to use flexible ahhesive.

Who is right - I'd love it to be the cheaper one, but at the same time, would be an expensive mistake if it was wrong!

Many thanks
 
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A new chipboard floor has been put down, with underfloor heating underneath.

Is ufh under the chipboard?

Personally I would never tile onto chipboard,although I have seen some posts on here saying it's possible.

Are the quotes including adhesive?

As I assume the chipboard is on beams then I can't see why you would need a membrane (is it to stop damp?)

Ply would be my choice to tile on.
 
Yes, the ufh is under the chipboard - its a hot water pipe system.

So what your saying is they need to put ply ontop first?

Quotes do include the adhesive.
 
I agree with lancenotalot; I’d be more concerned about tiling onto chipboard, it’s carp as far as a tiling base goes & I always use WBP plywood. Ensure the tiller quotes & uses a quality trade flexible adhesive & grout or it’s unlikely to last & the best ones are not cheap! What sort of U/F heating system is it? What sort of membrane has been specified & why?
 
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Yes, the ufh is under the chipboard - its a hot water pipe system.
OK. It’s obviously a suspended floor but is it on the 1st floor or ground? If ground floor what’s underneath? Is it just a false floor or a void under the house ventilated to outside by air bricks?

So what your saying is they need to put ply on top first?
You could overlay & tile onto that but the problem is it will raise the floor level & there will be even more floor covering to heat up before your U/F heating starts to work effectively. Heat reflective insulation is also important with U/F systems if they are to be efficient.

Quotes do include the adhesive.
See may previous response; make sure they specify which materials they propose to use!
 
Thanks for the replies, really appreciate your knowledge, as you can tell, I have none on the subject!

It is a ground floor kitchen extension. The heating pipes are sitting in/on that silver insulation. There is a void underneath, and there are air bricks on the outside.

Its a good point you make, I was getting worried about how the heat is going to get through the chipboard, plus ply plus tile - do you think it will work?

I'll check what adhesive they are using. If they are using the correct type, do you think it will be okay to tile straight onto the chipboard?
 
I have not had any experience with ufh pipe systems,only ribbon wire and matting.
Has the system been tested?
I recently used backer boards to tile over a chipboard floor and was back there this week tiling the conservatory.
The floor with the backer boards seemed ok and was done about 2 months ago,no cracks in the grout,I suppose only time will tell.

If you were to use backer boards over the chipboard it would only be 6mm additional thickness instead of 12mm with ply.

Try laying some ply or backer board over the chipboard and some tiles over that then let the system run for a little while and see how it warms up.

Not really sure what else to suggest.
 
It is a ground floor kitchen extension. The heating pipes are sitting in/on that silver insulation. There is a void underneath, and there are air bricks on the outside.
Hope the insulation is top spec. & it seals the pipes in completely from the under floor void or you will be loosing heat & spend a fortune keeping spiders, bugs & the odd mouse in a very desirable des res!

Its a good point you make, I was getting worried about how the heat is going to get through the chipboard, plus ply plus tile - do you think it will work?
With piped U/F systems now being installed on suspended floors, it’s common practice for the heating pipes to be installed below the floorboards (where else would you put them!) but, again, reflective insulation under the pipes is important for the system to be efficient. Obviously the thicker the floor – chipboard, ply overlay then tiles, the longer it will take for the heating system to get up to temperature.

I'll check what adhesive they are using. If they are using the correct type, do you think it will be okay to tile straight onto the chipboard?
For many reasons (& IMO), chipboard is the worst material you could possibly use for any floor; it’s obviously popular as it’s by far the cheapest, both in material & labour costs to lay it. If just fitting carpet or vinyl, the worse you will have to put up with over the years is creaks & movement but, as has already been said, tiling onto chip board is not good. It’s not as rigid as ply & any damp, water spills or even water from a frequently washed floor could find its way through into the chipboard. There are some water resistant boards but the water proof properties of general flooring chipboard are little better than toilet tissue & as soon as it gets wet it will swell & there goes your expensive tiled floor! Except for specialist (& very expensive) products, water proof tile adhesive & grout is only “water proof “ to the extent that won’t deteriorate if they get wet but they are not impervious to water. It can still absorb water & this can work its way through to the base, especially if there are any small flaws or cracks.

A 6mm WBP ply overlay screwed every 200mm would normally stiffen it up nicely & provide sufficient protection but, in your case, it creates a thicker barrier for your U/F heating. It maybe not a helpful comment but, personally, I would never have used chipboard as a tile base in the first place! If it’s at all possible & practicable I would cut my losses, pull it up & replace with minimum 18mm thick WBP ply; but you may need to go thicker, depending on the spacing of the floor supports. IMO, it’s the only way you’re going to guarantee a job that will be resilient & last; but a decent tiled floor is not cheap!
 
If you were to use backer boards over the chipboard it would only be 6mm additional thickness instead of 12mm with ply.
I reakon the OP could get away with 6mm WBP but it depends!

Try laying some ply or backer board over the chipboard and some tiles over that then let the system run for a little while and see how it warms up.
Sorry Lance but the OP’s heating system is under the chip floor & the last thing they want is a cement based backer board over the top! :confused: Backer board is insular & must be installed UNDER the heater element not over it; otherwise it will completely stuff the U/F heating system! I’m even reluctant to suggest over boarding with ply for that reason!
 
Sorry Lance but the OP’s heating system is under the chip floor & the last thing they want is a cement based backer board over the top! :confused: Backer board is insular & must be installed UNDER the heater element not over it; otherwise it will completely stuff the U/F heating system! I’m even reluctant to suggest over boarding with ply for that reason!

Odd that you think a backerboard of 6mm will create such a problem when several of the websites I looked at regarding the installation suggest that you concrete over the pipes :confused:

Have a look here under installation recommends you cover the pipes by 50mm min http://www.cat.org.uk/information/c...fo.db&eqSKUdatarq=InfoSheet_UnderfloorHeating

Here it's covered with 65mm http://www.continental-ufh.com/moreinfo.asp?page=insulated_slab

I think the problem will lie with the chipboard as oppose to the backer boards,the cement base of the backer board will turn it into a heat emitter.
 
Sorry Lance but the OP’s heating system is under the chip floor & the last thing they want is a cement based backer board over the top! :confused: Backer board is insular & must be installed UNDER the heater element not over it; otherwise it will completely stuff the U/F heating system! I’m even reluctant to suggest over boarding with ply for that reason!

Odd that you think a backerboard of 6mm will create such a problem when several of the websites I looked at regarding the installation suggest that you concrete over the pipes :confused:

Have a look here under installation recommends you cover the pipes by 50mm min http://www.cat.org.uk/information/c...fo.db&eqSKUdatarq=InfoSheet_UnderfloorHeating

Here it's covered with 65mm http://www.continental-ufh.com/moreinfo.asp?page=insulated_slab

I think the problem will lie with the chipboard as oppose to the backer boards,the cement base of the backer board will turn it into a heat emitter.
Interesting one this! On a solid ground floor the pipes are usually laid in a screed & their nature means you can’t really lay less than 50mm or it will crack up. It is also essential the floor has good under insulation covered with a reflector immediately below the heating element. The OP has a suspended floor & this is more what I had in mind:

http://www.nu-heat.co.uk/s.nl/it.I/id.225/.f
or this
http://www.nu-heat.co.uk/s.nl/it.I/id.226/.f

There are two schools of thought; one is to lay the pipes into a high mass (concrete) so it acts as a heat sink, similar to the storage heater principle, this can give a very stable temperature but, unfortunately, gives similar drawbacks; slower warm up times, higher initial energy input & a slower response time to changing temperature needs. Fitting a tile backer board over the element will have a similar effect & you will have to put heat energy into it before it can act as an emitter.

You need something to dissipate the heat evenly over the floor but tile over timber will do this very effectively anyway & using an insulator & heat reflector below the element will direct the heat into the floor above giving relatively quick warm up & response times; this makes it more efficient for most peoples requirements & in terms of energy consumption.

Different companies seem to give different recommendations; how you use your heating system will dictate which would be the most suitable for individual needs but, personally, I would always go for the quicker responses time.
 

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