to flush or not to flush that is the question

OK. If water is coming forcefully out of the highest rad, then you have probably not got a blockage in the Feed & Expansion pipe.

No reason why you shouldn't have a go at DIY fixing; it may save you the expense of a professional, and will in any case not do any harm if you have to call one in later.

You say some rads are hot and some are cold.

Completely turn off all of the hot rads, and all of the cold except one. Open the valves at both ends (you may need a small spanner to open the lockshield valve) The boiler need not be set very high. Check that the pump is set to high speed. Does this single open rad get hot? If so, you have at least got flow. If not, does it have a Thermostatic Radiator Valve? It might be jammed shut.

Repeat this "all off except one" on all the other cold rads and report back what you find.

Feel the Flow and Return pipes at the boiler, and see how hot the return pipe is. It should be pretty hot, like the one radiator, if there is flow. Feel the pump. It should be about as hot as the pipes. If it is hotter, it is jammed.

If you have some flow, you can at least use a sediment-loosening chemical cleaner like Sentinel X400. I am not a pro and I use this because it is not aggressive or acidic like faster cleaners. You leave it circulating for 4 weeks. You know it is starting to work when the circulating water goes jet black with loosened sediment. Can you do basic DIY plumbing? If so, consider fitting a Magnaclean on a 22mm vertical return pipe. It will cost about £100. As you say parts of your heating system are old, it is likely to have a lot of old sediment in it, and I guarantee you will be amazed and delighted to see how much sediment the Magnaclean traps.

However a chemical clean will not clear a completely blocked pipe, since it can't get down the blocked pipe to reach it.

Also, have a look round all the visible pipes, especially around the boiler, cylinder, pump and 3-port valve and see if you can find a bypass. This bleeds off flow between the Flow and the Return pipes, and may have a valve on it that you can adjust. Sometimes they are hidden under the floor.

You mentioned that some of the downstairs rads will not empty. This is probably because they are on drop loops fed from above, i.e. the pipes to the radiators do not go downwards into the floor. You can drain them by loosening the connections from the rad valves into the rad. It will gush or leak out so empty everything else first, and have plenty of bowls and trays ready, as well as an assistant to empty them. Black radiator water leaves a permanent stain. If you can take up a floorboard some people just let it run out under the floor. Once drained, you can fit a Lockshield Valve with Drain-off which only costs a few pounds,, to each of these radiators. You can put a drain hose on it when necessary.

Post photos of the pipes around the pump, boiler, cylinder, 3-port valve if you can. This may give clues.

You mention that the system has been extended. I hope it has worked correctly in the past since this was done? If not, it might be a design or installation error rather than sediment or a fault.

hello again, just a thought about the pump , how can i prove that it is operating correctly, i have removed the centre cap tp blead it and run a srew driver on the end of the shaft and flicked it through all three speeds, it did pick up as i switched but i am taking it for granted that it is running at the correct speeds. is it possible to split the pump from its mounting in the sysytem by removing the four allen bolts arounf the base. when i ran the system again the pump body was hotter that the pipe work inlet/outlet. would i be able to detect friction in the pump shaft/impellor? and could you please explain the term "gravity circulation" does that point to pump problems?

cheers

Stu
 
if the pump is surprisingly hotter than the water, then water is not flowing through it properly. (otherwise the water takes the heat away)

you have not yet said if you tried closing all the hot rads as described earlier. this will show if the pump is circulating water.

if it is circulating but not very well, use a sediment cleaner like X400. If it is not circulating at all, you might have a severe blockage

or the pump might be worn out. You have verified that the spindle inside the large central screw is spinning when the motor is turned on, have you?

Gravity circulation means that hot water (like hot air) rises, so will tend to go up from the boiler to any higher pipes and radiators. Gravity flow is much slower than pumped flow. If it returns through any downstairs radiators they might be warmish, but never as hot as the upstairs ones.

Edited

see 18 and 20
http://www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=37170&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

also 13 and the rest
http://www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=175736
 
OK. If water is coming forcefully out of the highest rad, then you have probably not got a blockage in the Feed & Expansion pipe.

No reason why you shouldn't have a go at DIY fixing; it may save you the expense of a professional, and will in any case not do any harm if you have to call one in later.

You say some rads are hot and some are cold.

Completely turn off all of the hot rads, and all of the cold except one. Open the valves at both ends (you may need a small spanner to open the lockshield valve) The boiler need not be set very high. Check that the pump is set to high speed. Does this single open rad get hot? If so, you have at least got flow. If not, does it have a Thermostatic Radiator Valve? It might be jammed shut.

Repeat this "all off except one" on all the other cold rads and report back what you find.

Feel the Flow and Return pipes at the boiler, and see how hot the return pipe is. It should be pretty hot, like the one radiator, if there is flow. Feel the pump. It should be about as hot as the pipes. If it is hotter, it is jammed.

If you have some flow, you can at least use a sediment-loosening chemical cleaner like Sentinel X400. I am not a pro and I use this because it is not aggressive or acidic like faster cleaners. You leave it circulating for 4 weeks. You know it is starting to work when the circulating water goes jet black with loosened sediment. Can you do basic DIY plumbing? If so, consider fitting a Magnaclean on a 22mm vertical return pipe. It will cost about £100. As you say parts of your heating system are old, it is likely to have a lot of old sediment in it, and I guarantee you will be amazed and delighted to see how much sediment the Magnaclean traps.

However a chemical clean will not clear a completely blocked pipe, since it can't get down the blocked pipe to reach it.

Also, have a look round all the visible pipes, especially around the boiler, cylinder, pump and 3-port valve and see if you can find a bypass. This bleeds off flow between the Flow and the Return pipes, and may have a valve on it that you can adjust. Sometimes they are hidden under the floor.

You mentioned that some of the downstairs rads will not empty. This is probably because they are on drop loops fed from above, i.e. the pipes to the radiators do not go downwards into the floor. You can drain them by loosening the connections from the rad valves into the rad. It will gush or leak out so empty everything else first, and have plenty of bowls and trays ready, as well as an assistant to empty them. Black radiator water leaves a permanent stain. If you can take up a floorboard some people just let it run out under the floor. Once drained, you can fit a Lockshield Valve with Drain-off which only costs a few pounds,, to each of these radiators. You can put a drain hose on it when necessary.

Post photos of the pipes around the pump, boiler, cylinder, 3-port valve if you can. This may give clues.

You mention that the system has been extended. I hope it has worked correctly in the past since this was done? If not, it might be a design or installation error rather than sediment or a fault.

hello again, well what a weekend, satursday was spent with the man flushing the system through, 9 till 4 for £230 which i thought was very reasnoble, but no matter what he did he could not get all the system to flush as one, so he did it in two halfs. he thought that the plumber had left an old non return valve in from the very old part of the system, a fault that he had encountered before that gave my symptoms. after a lot of searching we located in a dead space another zone valve, this involved having to cut through the lounge ceiling to access it the only other route being to take a bathroom floor up skirting boards and the rest. so by pushing the valve mechansim to manual it sent hot water zooming round all the sysytem, but do i have a knackered valve? its in a pig of a place to get too so i will have it moved. is the valve controlled by the honeywell heating control box ? are they 240v? the honeywell control box has never been the best so can i replace it with a better one or do i have to go like for like?

many thanks for your help to get me to this point

cheers

Stu
 

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