Toilet Problems....... (so embarrassing)

[trojan09]

Hi,

This is embarrassing!

We have 3 wc's in our home but the downstair cloak wc is causing some embarrassment.

I have to give you the story about it so you get the picture:

It is an 18 year old WC, balterley with handle that you "crank" to operate the siphon fitment.

OK? That's the fairly normal bit, and it has worked perfectly for 18 years flushing away merrily. No embarrassments.

But...NOW.....

Crank the flush handle and the pan fills to the top, then "gently" goes away.

Red alert to me - that means blocked pipes. Right? Well, no thats the strange thing...I've slung buckets of water, opened up the outside inspection covers, put some dummy paper down the loo and everything "moves" past the inspection cover as i'd expect with the force I'd expect.

So, to me, the pipes are fine bu somehow the siphon is not working as it should - you gon't get the little "gurgle" sound at the end of the flush like before.

I cant see anything on the siphon to alter or check.

I am loath to get a plumber (very low income, and he'll take the shirt remaining from my back thats left).

I am loath to replace siphon though as heard they are a nightmare to get water tight.

Its is a wc where the water cistern "sits" just on top of the WC - just rubber seal between the two - and of course its this seal I fear not getting 100% dry again if I take it out.

Please help

1 embarrassed dad!

 

[joe-90]

Have you tried replacing the diaphragm? Only costs pence.

BTW How can you have no income and have a house with 3 WCs?


joe

 

[trojan09]

Have you tried replacing the diaphragm? Only costs pence.

BTW How can you have no income and have a house with 3 WCs?


joe

Sorry to sound naive, but what is the diaphragm and how do i find it or check it?

As for your other comment, believe me, life can and has changed unexpectedly. One minute you can be enjoying life to the full and then all of a sudden wham...total turmoil and no income to boot and no prospect of things improving either! Life is full of ups and downs and so never judge the number of wc's as having any relationship to income!

One other thing - I did accidentally drop a small plastic cable clip in the wc water cistern and cant find it - could it have somehow damaged things? it was only very tiny.

sorry if these sound stupid questions - I am out of my field of expertise of course.

 

[joe-90]

Sorry to hear things have gone a little awry, hang in there kid. It can only go one way from here. (not down)

The diaphragm is a little plastic membrane that sits inside the syphon allowing water in then stopping it getting out again. It's like a one-way valve.


joe

 

[trojan09]

but if the diaphragm is inside the siphon, then i've still got to remove it to check it. Right?
that meansi'm at risk of doing a full reinstall anyway and my fear of not getting a water tight seal.

the siphon is a big green thing - lots bigger than the blue/plain plastic ones nowadays.

could it be the plastic clip i mentioned bugg**ed it?

Whats the best step to take right now?

 

[joe-90]

Use one of the other toilets.


You'll have to take it apart to fix it.



joe

 

[trojan09]

ok,

that's real bad news.

costs, time etc.

So, grasping the nettle, what do i need to buy and have at hand to tackle this job?

Bear in mind I'm worried how to get a seal so it doesn't leak - any advice on that also appreciated.

 

[Newboy]

I don't recall this type but unless it's a syphonic flush then it's nothing to do with the cistern/siphon/diaphram - if the pan is filling then gently flowing away then there is something restricting the flow - either a partial blockage or air pressure.

Check if anyone has lost anything down the pan recently - the last time I encountered exactly the syptoms you have described I found an apple which had lodged at the top up the u-bend in the pan - it allowed tissue and water to get past but nothing else.

 

[Stoday]

Wow! - newboy that's amazing. Operates as a washdown flush for 18 years then transforms into a syphonic overnight.

 

[ChrisR]

SOunds like the cable clip has got inside the siphon bell. (Yes siphon stodders!)

The diaphragm sits very near thebottom of the cistern, inside the siphon bell, on a grid which holds it flat when you crank away. If the edge is lifted, it'll "leak" and you won't get the piston effect.

The hook/loop from the handle crank is connected to a vertical con rod which holds the grid/diaph near the bottom of the siphon bell. . See if there's any margin for undoing and lowering the con rod, so the diaphragm and hopefully your errant clip woud emerge at the bottom of the bell. You might even be able to twizzle the con rod round. Be careful - if you drop the con rod into the top of the siphon housing, you won't get it back without dismantling - though I did melt the end of a HSS drill into one once, to lift it enough to grab it..

Just check that you haven't got the type of siphon with a joint in the middle - some are like that so's you can get to the diaphragm to change it without drama.

 

[Newboy]

OK Stodders - I defer to your superior knowledge - from the original post how can you tell the difference between a washdown and a double trap syphonic pan?

 

[Softus]

Sorry to hear things have gone a little awry, hang in there kid. It can only go one way from here. (not down)

The diaphragm is a little plastic membrane that sits inside the syphon allowing water in then stopping it getting out again. It's like a one-way valve.

This is oh-so-nearly a correct description. The diaphragm washer acts to turn part of the syphon into a piston that lifts the water over the highest point, at the same time expelling air and starting the syphonic effect.

That aside, newboy's point is the most important, because if the pan is filling faster than it's emptying then the problem is not with the syphon but is a blockage either in the WC trap or in the soil pipe.

It's possible that you have a syphonic pan - this is completely different to having a syphon in the cistern (and unfortunately doubly confusing because all pans use the effect of a syphon to better evacuate the pan contents). Despite Stoday's hasty proclamation I've read nothing that shows you have a washdown pan. Given the age of your WC it's utterly possible that you have a syphonic, and it's also possible that the blockage is related.

One crude but good way to tell is that most syphonic pans have a little hole at the back of the pan where the water enters. Washdown's don't have this.

The bad news is that, if you have a syponic pan, then you have to remove the cistern in order to remove and service the components.

My advice is to isolate the cold supply to the WC, then take your time and do things slowly and carefully. Live with the fact that it might take a few days to get the thing working again, and come back here for advice when you've discovered which kind of WC you have - there will be lots of help for you in putting it back together with no leaks (clue - get yourself some "Sanitary Silicone Sealant, specifically designed for sanitary
applications where mildew resistance is required").

See also this useful web site for an understanding of the principles involved.

 

[Softus]

Er, apologies ChrisR, I missed your posting until this moment and therefore have duplicated some or your points.

Trojan - one more reference for you - if you click here you'll find a little bit more information on pan types.

 

[Stoday]

it has worked perfectly for 18 years flushing away merrily. No embarrassments.

But...NOW.....

Crank the flush handle and the pan fills to the top, then "gently" goes away.

If it was a syphonic flush, it would not have "worked normally" for 18 years.

If, after all, it is a syphonic flush, then the first thing to check is that enough water flows to start the flush syphon. If the cistern syphon "breaks" early, before the cistern's emptied, not enough water will have flowed to start the flush syphon. It would be best to check for this fault first than to disconnecct the pan from the cistern first.

 

[Softus]

If it was a syphonic flush, it would not have "worked normally" for 18 years.

You're going to have to spell this one out for me Stoday - why not?

If, after all, it is a syphonic flush, then the first thing to check is that enough water flows to start the flush syphon. If the cistern syphon "breaks" early, before the cistern's emptied, not enough water will have flowed to start the flush syphon. It would be best to check for this fault first than to disconnecct the pan from the cistern first.

An absolutely valid point. But do you know of a way of correcting the fault without removing the cistern?