Twin and Earth

[mbrooke]

But the inspector has to use something as a basis to judge my work, right?

Yes - but, at least in theory, (s)he could not 'fail' an installation because of non-compliance with BS7671, if you could demonstrate that the work nevertheless complied with Part P. However, few people, other perhaps than some academics, are likely to be able to demonstrate that convincingly. As I said, the law does NOT require compliance with BS7671.

Kind Regards, John

So in theory I could wire a home to the 2014 National Electrical Code (NFPA 70) and argue its ok showing the evidence?

Just wondering, please forgive me.

 

[DetlefSchmitz]

At least one person used the German regulations and got away with it.

As it was for a bathroom it involved sockets which would otherwise have not been allowed.

However the German regulations at least apply to a 230V/50Hz supply. I'm not sure that a US set of regulations would meet the bill.

 

[JohnW2]

So in theory I could wire a home to the 2014 National Electrical Code (NFPA 70) and argue its ok showing the evidence?

You could certainly try - but, as has been said, there could well be problems due to differences in voltage, frequency, accessories, fused/unfused plugs, cable sizes etc. etc.

I would also presume that things peculiar to the UK, like ring final circuits, would not be permitted by NFPA 70.

Kind Regards, John

 

[mbrooke]

At least one person used the German regulations and got away with it.

As it was for a bathroom it involved sockets which would otherwise have not been allowed.

However the German regulations at least apply to a 230V/50Hz supply. I'm not sure that a US set of regulations would meet the bill.

I still think the UK should pass a law requiring BS7671 to be legally disclosed like the NEC is in the US. Technically the NEC is also copy righted, but the un redacted text (or locally amended text if applicable) is required to be accessible as law documents free of charge.


The NEC might not apply in that one section does forbid the use of 230 volt appliances less than 1440 VA.

 

[JohnW2]

I still think the UK should pass a law requiring BS7671 to be legally disclosed like the NEC is in the US.

I can't see how that would/could work so long as BS7671 is produced by independent organisations. If it became freely available at no cost, so that the BSI/IET stopped getting their £85 per copy, I imagine they might well stop publishing it!

If government wants a set of Wiring Regulations/Code which is legally enforced/mandatory, and therefore releases it into the public domain, I think they would have to write their own - and that would be a nightmare!

Kind Regards, John

 

[mbrooke]

I still think the UK should pass a law requiring BS7671 to be legally disclosed like the NEC is in the US.

I can't see how that would/could work so long as BS7671 is produced by independent organisations. If it became freely available at no cost, so that the BSI/IET stopped getting their £85 per copy, I imagine they might well stop publishing it!

If government wants a set of Wiring Regulations/Code which is legally enforced/mandatory, and therefore releases it into the public domain, I think they would have to write their own - and that would be a nightmare!

Kind Regards, John

It might not work for the UK, but its been done for years in the US. The NFPA still makes good profit. Maybe its because the NEC is re-newed every 3 years, so there is less to loose. Dunno.

 

[JohnW2]

It might not work for the UK, but its been done for years in the US. The NFPA still makes good profit. Maybe its because the NEC is re-newed every 3 years, so there is less to loose.

I don't really follow the logic of that at all - they will surely 'loose' lots of money (fail to get sales) every 3 years? Maybe the government subsidises them? Amendments or new editions of BS7671 are generally published every 3-4 years, so that's not much different.

Kind REgards, John

 

[mbrooke]

It might not work for the UK, but its been done for years in the US. The NFPA still makes good profit. Maybe its because the NEC is re-newed every 3 years, so there is less to loose.

I don't really follow the logic of that at all - they will surely 'loose' lots of money (fail to get sales) every 3 years? Maybe the government subsidises them? Amendments or new editions of BS7671 are generally published every 3-4 years, so that's not much different.

Kind REgards, John

Im sure NFPA 70 looses some money, but not enough to bother them. In the US anything that is used for law purposes (like the NEC) must be disclosed free of charge. It might be because DIY work is very common in the US, so that could be a driving factor I guess. Not that I do not agree with you, its just that the system in place there doesn't effect them much.

 

[winston1]

The NEC might not apply in that one section does forbid the use of 230 volt appliances less than 1440 VA.

Interesting, didn't know that. Someone I know went to New York last year and asked me about using her UK sewing machine. I suggested plugging it in to a US 240 volt socket (in the kitchen). She couldn't find that so on her next trip back to the UK I presented her with a step up transformer.

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/SC5416W.html

So would that be technically allowed as the appliance in use is below 1440VA all be it via a transformer.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I would also presume that things peculiar to the UK, like ring final circuits, would not be permitted by NFPA 70.

That's goodness

 

[mbrooke]

The NEC might not apply in that one section does forbid the use of 230 volt appliances less than 1440 VA.

Interesting, didn't know that. Someone I know went to New York last year and asked me about using her UK sewing machine. I suggested plugging it in to a US 240 volt socket (in the kitchen). She couldn't find that so on her next trip back to the UK I presented her with a step up transformer.

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/SC5416W.html

So would that be technically allowed as the appliance in use is below 1440VA all be it via a transformer.

To be honest the rule is silly IMO, its just one of those hold overs from the past. 120 volts is exclusive here so changing the rule is no hurry.

Technically the step up transformers are legal because the NEC does not control what gets plugged in.

 

[plugwash]

Technically the step up transformers are legal because the NEC does not control what gets plugged in.

Wouldn't the same apply to a 240V socket? the installer does not control whether the appliance plugged in to the 240V socket is over 1440VA.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Could be the same kind of forbidding as our 2kW on a ring final.

I.e. - not there.

 

[mbrooke]

Technically the step up transformers are legal because the NEC does not control what gets plugged in.

Wouldn't the same apply to a 240V socket? the installer does not control whether the appliance plugged in to the 240V socket is over 1440VA.

Good point, you are technically correct


An electrician can install a 240 volt outlet anywhere, but the inspector cant control what gets plugged in down the road.

 

[JohnW2]

Im sure NFPA 70 looses some money, but not enough to bother them. In the US anything that is used for law purposes (like the NEC) must be disclosed free of charge.

As I said, I think the same might well be true in the UK IF (which is not the case) the law explictly required compliance with BS7671. However, what NFPA says on their website does not seem indicate a compulsion to 'disclose', when they write:

...NFPA is proud to have been the first organization to provide free public access to privately developed codes and standards, and are pleased to see other organizations following our lead.

As for 'not being bothered', they go on to say:

There are some who argue that we should do more and immediately make all of our documents available online without any restrictions. It is essential that NFPA maintain copyright and the ability to charge for the codes and standards. Most of the money NFPA needs to fund our process and other vital mission activities comes from the sale of codes.

As for those 'restrictions', as far as I can see, the on-line version of NFPA 70 cannot be downloaded, cannot be printed and cannot be copied from - so the only opportunity to 'steal' is to take screen shots of tiny bits. The NFPA website also has reports of lawsuits relating to people who have somehow managed to put NFPA-copyrighted material onto their websites - so they clearly are 'bothered'.

Kind Regards, John