Vehicle with less complicated electronics.

[camerart]

Hi,

I have a van that has an indicator stuck on. The estimate for repair could be as much as £330, because an electronics module has failed.

This has annoyed me, because I was brought up with much simpler vehicles that could be repaired by a handyman/woman. Anyone could get a wiring diagram and trace the fault. There was nothing wrong with this way of working. (I accept the engine management and emissions could have a bearing on this)

I would like to know if anyone can suggest vehicles with the minimum of electronics and more home repairable, that I might change to.

Cheers, Camerart.

 

[Burnerman]

We're all in the same boat mate - but if anything I would say that French electrics are probably the worst as they get on a bit.
My choice would be a Transit if only for the fact there's millions around, and a dealer on every corner. Second hand spares are plentiful too.
Rust is an unfortunate issue with them though.
One thing.....if you go for a used one, do consider that they are for sale for a reason - been to the moon and back, heavy bills, management lamp on etc, and most have been resprayed.
If you thought the used car market was a minefield, it's nowt compared with the van one.
John

 

[camerart]

We're all in the same boat mate - but if anything I would say that French electrics are probably the worst as they get on a bit.
My choice would be a Transit if only for the fact there's millions around, and a dealer on every corner. Second hand spares are plentiful too.
Rust is an unfortunate issue with them though.
One thing.....if you go for a used one, do consider that they are for sale for a reason - been to the moon and back, heavy bills, management lamp on etc, and most have been resprayed.
If you thought the used car market was a minefield, it's nowt compared with the van one.
John

Hi John,

I've had this van Renault Master, for almost 10 years, and it's been good, up to now, and low mileage. I could divide £330 by 10 years, and it doesn't sound so much.

You say that French electrics are poor. If these vans are the same as Movano and primastar? do you think their control boxes are all made in the same place, or perhaps Vauhall vans don't have this problem so much, and I could replace my box with their module.

Camerart.

 

[Burnerman]

The way I'd look at it......if you think the van has a few more years left in it and it hasn't cost a lot to date, I'd go for the repair. The problem is of course, is the control module the faulty bit??
There's sure to be second hand modules available, with a short warranty, and if that proves to be the fault then that's fine.
I would very much doubt if other manufacturers parts would fit your van, and the Vivaro has an appalling reliability record I gather. I can't comment on the Nissan van but it's likely to have some Renault bits in it.
I've avoided posts on your vans problem because just like everyone else, it's pure guesswork on what the problem actually is. I would be inclined to have a chat with a local service manager though - I do find them approachable and helpful as a rule.
I can only wish you luck on this one!
John

 

[Peter.N.]

I would go with John, get a secondhand one, if you don't have a local breaker have a look on ebay.

I would have liked to have stuck with simpler cars, my first was a 1939 Ford prefect, it had less wiring in the whole car than mine has in the drivers door. It didn't have a heater though, only a 3 speed gearbox and a starting handle.

Unfortunately/fortunately, they don't make them like that now.

Peter

 

[Dave54]

Like the others I'd risk a few quid on a secondhand unit. Without a proper diagram of what's in the control unit (or even with) it has to be a nightmare to try to repair.
I'm another who can't see the point in a lot of the complicated electronics in vehicles these days. Engine management's fair enough, but this business of having a switch, a relay, and a lamp, and then sticking a computer in there to make the relay work off the switch is nonsense to me. Unless they are trying to do something very clever with interlock switching and so on. Of course the unit may also do seat belts and air bags. . .
'Course it does beg the question that if everything else is working, could you pick the wiring up from the switch and lights, stick a relay and flasher unit somewhere and take power from a fused supply off the ignition? I don't know if it's possible or even legal though. Might fall foul of type approval or something? You'd have to check before you did anything like that.

 

[planenut]

At that price it'd be cheaper to hire a similar model and keep swapping the bits over 'til you found the problem.
Did I say that? you bet.

 

[Avocet]

Most of it is forced on us by safety and environmental regulation. We all want the spectacular fuel economy of the modern vehicle, some may even want the improved environmental performance, but the complexity is the price we pay.

 

[AlanE]

Until I retired I repaired gas boilers and these, like modern cars, have become as complicated as hell with all the electronics they now contain.

Once upon a time they consisted of a gas valve, a pilot light and a thermocouple to ensure pilot was lit. Oh plus a thermostat.

Then along came all the money saving features so they use less fuel but spare parts are expensive. The old ones might go wrong once or twice in their lifetime whereas modern ones go wrong a lot more often. Plus will they ever last so long?

So in reality which is cheaper to run in the long run?

 

[Avocet]

Trouble is, if you have an old car that doesn't do many miles, you won't be bothered about fuel consumption, but sooner or later (even without the electronics) something will need replacing and there won't be any spares. My own car is 25 years old. It doesn't do many miles because I have a company car these days. It maybe does 30 to the gallon - 33 on a run. If I bent it tomorrow though, I know I can't get panels for it any more.

 

[Peter.N.]

Modern cars are a pain but they last a lot longer now, the average '50s car was in the scrap yard by about 60,000 miles because it had rusted out, timing chains then probably didn't last much longer than belts do now but they never did enough miles to wear one out.

The best cars were made in the '90s, still relatively simple but nice to drive and long lasting. I ran diesel XM estates for over 15 years and apart from the suspension and ABS there were no essential electronics, once started you could run them without a battery, the comfort was second to none, they were very relaxing to drive and I had a couple that had done nearly 300,000 miles and were still going well. Up until '96 they had mechanical fuel pumps which never went wrong and would do 50+ mpg. I would still be running one if they were as cheap and available as they were then.

Peter

 

[Dave54]

Modern cars are a pain but they last a lot longer now, the average '50s car was in the scrap yard by about 60,000 miles because it had rusted out, timing chains then probably didn't last much longer than belts do now but they never did enough miles to wear one out.

The best cars were made in the '90s, still relatively simple but nice to drive and long lasting. I ran diesel XM estates for over 15 years and apart from the suspension and ABS there were no essential electronics, once started you could run them without a battery, the comfort was second to none, they were very relaxing to drive and I had a couple that had done nearly 300,000 miles and were still going well. Up until '96 they had mechanical fuel pumps which never went wrong and would do 50+ mpg. I would still be running one if they were as cheap and available as they were then.

Peter

Had an '89 Passat Estate that lasted for 21 years. Only went in the end because it was getting a bit tired in general and the manifold started leaking water, which would have been an engine out job. Not madly economical though at 30mpg on petrol.

Thing is I've got nothing against the engine management kit. At least you can plug a reader in to see what the faults are. It's all the ancillary crepe I can do without. Interior lights on timers etc.etc. All very nice until it goes wrong, and pulls down half the other electrics with it. As I said earlier I can't see the point of a lot of it. The main essential stuff. Driving lights, indicators, brake lights, and wipers should be on separate circuits clear of any computers and kept as simple as possible.

 

[Peter.N.]

I would agree. A friend of mine works on coaches and they had so much trouble with multiplex systems they order their coaches hard wired now.

Peter

 

[Belle427]

ive seen lighting problems on Peugeots with these bsi type modules before that resulted in bills for hundreds of pounds!
As said bba reman are very good or one of the ecu testing places may be able to help, substituting from other cars does not always work as they are usually paired to the car.

 

[AlanE]

... substituting from other cars does not always work as they are usually paired to the car.

I have been told by several people that at least on Peugeot models their modules can only be programmed once from new, they cannot be reprogrammed to another vehicle.

This means that it is necessary to replace all of the modules from the same donor car.