Very confused newby!

[Parrotface]

Good evening.

My partner and I purchased a property that has an old outbuilding on it. This has its own title deed that has been incorporated into the newer property (that we live in) title deed.

It has not been lived in as far as we know for years. It is made of wood and needs a lot work on it. It has no bathroom or kitchen right now but does retain an old electric meter. It was definately its own residence.

We would like to use this for friends, family and holiday lets.

Would any of you know what our situation is with regards to planning? It seems like s minefield which I'm not at all familiar with!

This is our first property and would be grateful for any wise words.

Many thanks,

John
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[^woody^]

If it had its own title deed, then it would normally be an individual unit in terms of planning law, and have its own planning use and conditions. Check with the council.

If part of the land of the main house, then in terms of planning, ancillary use would be allowed (accommodation for friends and family) but not holiday lets as that's commercial use, and would depend on whether the original planning conditions and use classes of the outbuilding or your main building allowed commercial use.

 

[jeds]

What was the buildings last use? And how long ago?

 

[Parrotface]

....."but not holiday lets as that's commercial use, and would depend on whether the original planning conditions and use classes of the outbuilding or your main building allowed commercial use"

i know that the shack was put up 90 years ago pre modern building regs and planning - does this make a difference to planning or the ability to use for holiday lets?

Another poster asked when the building was last used...I have no idea, but it was residential.

Does anybody know what my next move would be to secure this as a holiday let? Also would it be legal without planning to put in a toilet and kitchenette?

Thanks!

 

[^woody^]

You will need to prove "established use" by way of a Lawful Development Certificate.

You will need to prove that the building has been used for the purpose you state, for several years continuously. You obviously wont have this proof.

Or you just do the conversion, wait ten years and then if the council don't do anything, then the use is automatically established.

 

[Parrotface]

By virtue of it having its own title deed, own electric meter etc, isn't that a fact they they can't contest??? What grounds could they tell me that I couldn't develop and use it???

 

[SimonH2]

By virtue of it having its own title deed, own electric meter etc, isn't that a fact they they can't contest???

Yes, those would be incontestable facts.
But they don't prove anything other than the building was once a separate "property" with a lecky supply - could have been just someone's hobby workshop.

 

[Parrotface]

By virtue of it having its own title deed, own electric meter etc, isn't that a fact they they can't contest???

Yes, those would be incontestable facts.
But they don't prove anything other than the building was once a separate "property" with a lecky supply - could have been just someone's hobby workshop.

True- but neighbours can remember a one armed World War One veteran living there....I even have his name....
Seriously though, what would I need do? Forgive for being thick but I'm still at a loss..... Do I approach the planning department with the information I have or fill something out online?

 

[SimonH2]

... but neighbours can remember a one armed World War One veteran living there....I even have his name....

If they are prepared to put that in writing then you'd have good grounds.

 

[^woody^]

what would I need do? Forgive for being thick but I'm still at a loss..... Do I approach the planning department with the information I have or fill something out online?

You apply for a Lawful Development Certificate with the information you have. And hope for the best.

They wont accept a neighbour saying it was this or that. That is not evidence. The onus is on you to prove what you are applying for, the council will assess your supporting documents and make a decision on that.

 

[Parrotface]

what would I need do? Forgive for being thick but I'm still at a loss..... Do I approach the planning department with the information I have or fill something out online?

You apply for a Lawful Development Certificate with the information you have. And hope for the best.

They wont accept a neighbour saying it was this or that. That is not evidence. The onus is on you to prove what you are applying for, the council will assess your supporting documents and make a decision on that.

In your experience, if I were to apply for a lawful development certificate (as this seems the best start??). What would be the best information I should gather?

If that fails- what other options do I have?

Thanks

 

[^woody^]

First you have to ask the council what use class they consider the building to be, and tell them what you want to do with it. They might class it to suit you, so you need to do no more.

If you want to apply for a defined use vis a LDC, then you need documentary evidence to support your claims. Bills, plans, photos, news items whatever. It needs to be tangible evidence, not a comment from a neighbour (who may well have a vested interest in any favourable decision made)

It's no good applying for a LDC if you don't have the evidence before hand

Otherwise you just apply for straight planning permission or outline permission

Bare in mind that if you need to completely or significantly rebuild it, then you'll need planning permission anyway. In which case you may as well demolish and build something more suitable rather than make do with an existing shell

 

[jeds]

Whether you have a legal planning situation depends on lots of things. You could just assume you have and get on with it but you would be taking a certain risk that the planners will notice and serve enforcement. How likely that is depends on your situation and how visible it is, the intensity of use etc. and what the planners know about the site. If you want it 100% sorted you will need a lawful development certificate. As above, the onus of proof is on you so you will need some evidence. Rather than a strict proof the test is based on the 'balance of probability' so any evidence can be useful. If it comes down to a toss up the evidence will be weighed. If you have some and the planners have none the balance might go in your favour. The issue you might face is abandonment. If the building has not been used for a long time the planning use can be deemed to have been abandoned. One thing to bear in mind; if you apply for a certificate of lawfulness, you are kind of starting from the position that you are not sure about the planning use. You wouldn't apply for a LDC for your house would you, so why apply for one for that perfectly legal holiday let? Evidence is king. If you can get decent evidence and the planners have nothing to go on you'll have a good chance.

 

[SimonH2]

One thing to bear in mind; if you apply for a certificate of lawfulness, you are kind of starting from the position that you are not sure about the planning use. You wouldn't apply for a LDC for your house would you, so why apply for one for that perfectly legal holiday let?

So what I read between the lines there is ...
Just start using the property, it's then in use for that - it may have had a break, but it's not now abandoned, it's just had a break. It's then up to the planners to show that you don't have permission for it.
But do it in a way that doesn't expose you to big losses if you fail and the planners win.

So I'd be doing the minimum - put in basic facilities, make it habitable, but don't spend a fortune on refurbishment above what it "needs". Market it as "quaint" with "period charm" It doesn't need central heating if it's just used in summer and so on. Find a few friends who'll rent it for a week or two to establish use.

Evidence is king. If you can get decent evidence and the planners have nothing to go on you'll have a good chance.

If you are on good terms with the neighbours, see if they'll put it in writing that it used to be lived in. Get details like "he lived there for years, since before we moved here in <year>" which will establish historical use. If it was last lived in a lot of years ago, then I'd try and gloss over that - so leave out "he died in 1969" sort of comments which would give ammunition to the planners to say the historical use was abandoned, leave them to find that sort of evidence themselves.
Of course, if the neighbours don't like the planners, they aren't obliged to talk to them when they come round asking such questions - so the planners might not be able to find that out for themselves very easily I doubt council records on tax etc go back all that far.

 

[Parrotface]

Thanks to everybody who has kindly posted here.

I will be starting the ball rolling tommorrow and have a couple of final questions that could help me greatly..

First you have to ask the council what use class they consider the building to be, and tell them what you want to do with it. They might class it to suit you, so you need to do no more.

>>>>>Is the above something that I do online, in person or on the Internet?


If you want to apply for a defined use vis a LDC, then you need documentary evidence to support your claims. Bills, plans, photos, news items whatever. It needs to be tangible evidence, not a comment from a neighbour (who may well have a vested interest in any favourable decision made)

>>>>>if the council deny knowledge of the building, will I inform them (if you suggest I visit the planning department in person, or on the phone) that I want to apply for an LDC??


Bare in mind that if you need to completely or significantly rebuild it, then you'll need planning permission anyway. In which case you may as well demolish and build something more suitable rather than make do with an existing shell.

>>>> I like the existing shell, it's a quaint wooden affair, but will need a kitchen and bathroom. how will installing this impact on any application ?


With thanks for your help so far....

John