water under floor boards!?!?!?!?

[eddylyons]

hi all, been a while since i been on here, hope one of you guys can help or just givea bit of advice here....here i go

brought old 100yr old house in march last year(not cavity wall) and upon removing carpet noticed down stairs floor boards were slightly rotten. after cutting a hole. big enough for me to fit in. theres approx a 4ft drop from my floorboard level to foundation leverl, in this void i found about 3 inch of water underneather the whole bottom floor of my house. i got a submergable pump and pumped the water away. my damp course has failed because the damp is all up the walls above the skirting level. i left it then over the summer checking every month or so and it didnt really fill up, but never actually dried properly. now however the water is back and ive done a few tests with dye down gutters and drains but nothing seems to be leaking?? is this the water table??? if so how can i stop the water coming in so i can then treat the damp with a dpc product??

hope someone out there has a bit of help coz ive seen the programmes n these jobs aint cheap!! doh!!!
thanks

 

[DIYDANDY]

Has its return coincided with your heating being turned on?

 

[KenGMac]

Eddy, Hi.

if your underfloor area stayed "relatively" dry during the Summer and is now beginning to get damp / wet / standing water again, there is the high probability that ground water table is to blame.

There are some [expensive] to install retro applied surface finishes that can address the problem, but, you need room to work with them, and, they do not address the water that is percolating directly up from immediately below your house.

What is the ground like below your property? Sand / clay ?

You could make an insurance claim, but they will probably say it is a rising water table and not covered.

There are firms that undertake testing of the water, to check for the presence of "Fecal Material / and or Chlorine" the presence of either would indicate that there is a fractured and leaking sewer [Fecal] or in the event of chlorine a fractured and leaking water mains pipe.

it may be possible to involve the local water board who just may do these tests for you [hey ain't cheap] and [ ar at times NOT conclusive, at all]

For Insurance purposes I have historically been involved with several problems such as you describe, one remedy is to install a "French Drain" around the property , on the up slope side

French Drain, a trench dug [in this case external to the house] and at a small distance from the walls, then lined with a "Geotextile" such as Teram and this trench filled with stone, preferably with a perforated pipe at its base or near to its base. Problems include where do you lead the accumulated water to? is there a nearby stream? if you use an interceptor, to remove fines / mud Etc then the resultant water from your "french drain" can be led into a surface water manhole, with the requisite permissions Etc.

Do any of your neighbours have a similar problem?

A few suggestions, some further answers needed please?

 

[foxhole]

Also worth checking to see if the house has ever had an internal well [not unknown].

 

[eddylyons]

hi thanks for the replies guys....the water hasnt anything to do with the heating bieng switced on thanks...as for water testing im aving a guy from severn trent out tommorrow to give me an answer if its mains or rainwater. i spoke to a guy the other day who said i should check my survey and see if theres any mention of this problem. theres nowhere to pump the water too, n i might be wrong but think its illegAL to send rain water down a sewer pipe?? its all a bit fustrating n any ting u guys can help with is much appriciated. not sure on the well theory either ill look into it... strange thing is that i live in the highest point of my town with lots of big trees around it and a huge water station about a alf mile away, so water table in theory sould be low?? im not sure???? ill keep u guys posted with the water testing.......thanks a bunch

 

[KenGMac]

Softly goes it, see what the Water Board man has to say.

Bet He states that the water is not "His" that is has chlorine in it, why because they all do, then several weeks later a van + men turn to and sort a "new burst" in the road or somewhere?

One trick is to place your ear on to the tap in the kitchen, get someone to turn on and off another cold tap in the house somewhere, you WILL hear the noise as the water runs. listen carefully, if you hear a noise, it is a possibility that the noise you hear in the pipes is an on-going leak, somewhere inside or [more interestingly] outside your house?

You mention "pumping" the water away, a field drain if designed correctly does not need pumps, it relies on gravity. the drain I mentioned is constructed Externally, and depending on the relative levels of the invert [bottom of] the drain and the "Invert level" of your present drainage system then at some point the Drainage system will be power than the french drain, so you can connect in to it.

Another way of "disposal" would be to connect the "French Drain" into a new "Soakaway" provided the soakaway is about i think 30. m. from the property, the ability of a Soakaway depends on the type of ground around your property, some clays will simply not absorb water, such as boulder clay, then again loam and sand will accept a lot of water.

As for not feeding a storm[rain water] pipe into a "foul" sewage manhole, if your property is about 100 years old then there is a very high probability that this system around your property is a "combined" system where both rain water and sewage end up in the same manhole, before they both get into the main sewer in the road.

You could bee cheeky and ask the Water Board man to test for fecial Content as well, after all the water board are responsible for both?

There are in some conditions i recall "Artesian Wells" that only show them selves on the top of hills? you may have one under the house? Are here any clues in the street names around where you stay? for example in Edinburgh there is an area hoes name ends in Springs, guess what there are loads of natural springs in Gardens Etc,

 

[RigidRaider]

Er.... what's wrong with a simple sump pump operated by a float switch? It worked in our 100 year old house for many years.

 

[studips]

a bit of effort, but you could nip off down the garden a bit and dig a profile pit - see if you do have a high water table.......

 

[eddylyons]

thanks for all your help guys, ive been away for a few weeks working but am back now fighting this problem...ive pumped the water out so as near to bone dry as i can get it and noticed water comming in. im sure its the water table after more tests and listening to previous tales of the same nature. the french drain idea sounds good but my founations are lower than the nearest drains. 2ft lower. i was thining of maybe re pointing the brick work under the boards then applying a dpm and filling with concrete to about a meter, which would then be about a foot under my joist level. i could then use dry zone and crate a new damp coursejust under floor board level. would this work as the water only seems to rise about 8" at the highest point. i was thinking of a sump pump but would rather eliminate the problem once andd for all. look forward to hearing from someone

 

[KenGMac]

Eddy, hi.

How did it go with the Guy from Severn & Trent? Any conclusive conclusions?

As for some other proposals you mention in the last post?
1/. Pointing the internal brick and adding a DPM of some sort.
A/. The water if as we seem to suspect is indeed ground Water will simply circumvent the bricks and come up directly from the "Solumn" [the ground under the house] in effect a down and up move by the water, where if it can not get in via the bricks on the external wall it will come in by percolating under the founds and gain access that way. it is a perennial problem attempting to retro fit a DPM / DPC.

2/ Filling a part of the underfloor void with concrete?
A/. to attempt to use "conventional;l concrete simply will not work, there is not enough room to pump the concrete in and at the same time level it off.
B/. Fear naught, there are available "Specialist" Foamed Concrete suppliers. This material is a [best described as ] lightweight "foamed mix" that is self leveling, that is you do not have to get in there with it to get it to a level, it will do that itself, goggle Foamed Concrete Suppliers in your area. Problem is that you will have to do this on a room by room, or in this case [underfloor] on a compartment by compartment basis so that you are filling a defined area of the underbuilding, containing the concrete within that area with a shutter at the entrance to that area. What i am trying to elaborate on is that your underbuilding will be a series of roughly room shaped areas, you need to fill them up one by one, starting at the furthest point away from where you introduce the pumps hose.
C./ The suppliers truck comes with a small but effective pump attached, the hose length is limited so Pre-Planning is absolutely VITAL in determining how and where you place the discharge hose in the foundations.
D/. I have used this Idea successfully to stop a very serious ingress of contaminated ground water from entering an underfloor area, the contaminant was Central Heating Fuel oil that effectively and massively destroyed the paint applied DPM on the walls and Solumn of the property, in effect the Kerosine ate the DPM.
E/. How deep to take the foamed concrete. i would suggest that you infill to a depth of a few hundreds MMs above the flood level that you have now, what will then happen is that water, being as lazy as humans will opt to infiltrate the next nearest easiest area, your neighbours underfloor void.
F/. What then happens if your neighbour does what you have done, but takes his foamed concrete higher than yours, you will again get water in up to the level of the Concrete in His foundation / underbuild area.

3/. Fitting a sump and a sump pump?
A/. many "purists can say that the underfloor area will be "damp" but to have running water in there is not a good idea, because, running water will introduce m,ore free moisture in the air within the underbuilding. Will tend to cool down the house. Costs some money to run, but not cost nearly as much as installing Foamed concrete.
B/. Provided that you have a really good ventilation under the floors then this option is worth looking at.
C/. problem with this system is that if you attract the water from your neighbours property as well, then it could be argued that He is benefitting from your endeavors, at no cost to him, remember water is lazy, it will naturally percolate / run to the lowest point available, don't you just love Gravity.
D/. Next problem is where do you pump the water to? nearest rain water down pipe, job done.

3/. Back to the french drain.
A/. Your drains Invert levels are above the foundations, you could excavate the external french Drain to the level of the founds, run the drain to a "Catch pit" then pump from there? all work external? no ness in the house. From the catch pit the outfall from the catch pit pumps into the rain water system or if you have a combined system into that.
B/. if there is enough room in the Garden a "Soakaway" may be an answer, this is dependant on the nature of the soil surrounding the property, if it is Boulder clay forger it, Sand is a good option. it could be anything between.
B/. Advantages of this system are, the actual french drain track could be very narrow indeed, there are some small excavators that will happily dig a 300.mm wide track to the depth you need, followed by "Geotextile Material" and then infilled with suitable stone, plus a perforated "Wavin Coil" pipe at the base.

See what you think.

Hope this assists.

Cheers.

Ken.

 

[eddylyons]

cheers ken............

i had a few days off work to do my bathroom last week. anyway it rained really heavy on one of the days so i went out for a little stroll around the nieghbours houses. the hose im actually joined to is in a terrible state and most of his down pipes are blocked from his gutters. this has lead me to belive that this is the problem. (hopefully anyway) i used my dye to check my own drainage and noticed that some of my pipes run into the ground and are not connected to any sewers. i was told that these are on soak aways?? as u mentioned. after reading up on soakaways i found that they dont always last forever, and as u said about the clay, our town is called redditch after the clay pits. ive spoke to the nieghbour and asked if i could do water drainage tests on his house with the dye just to see if maybe its coming in from his side? one solution to the soakaways at the back of my hous is to run all the gutters to a sewer drain at the back of the house that already is being used by one down pipe. this would then eliminate the rear soakaways. is this possible or would it cause problems?? the front however would be a diferent case as there is no drain to connect to unless i dig up and lay my own drain in and ask severn trent to connect to nearest sewer. if after all this work the water is still coming in then i will have to go for the concrete method i think. hope fully it wont come to that.

thanks for all your help and advise. id buy u a pint if i could haha

eddy

 

[anythingispossible]

Identical probs mate: I discovered the damp in my walls was NOT failed DPC as I first thought but porous brickwork. Bricks 120 yrs old don't perform too well acting like a sponge! I had ***** come in and they repaired all defective bricks, waterproofed the whole house and applied tough exterior almost fibreglass 'paint' finish, after 6 months house was feeling dried after 12 months ALL wall damp has gone! If its not your DPC is defective bricks. I wish I had 3" water under the house; I got 2 feet of the stuff!.... work in progress!

 

[gemlotte]

Identical probs mate: I discovered the damp in my walls was NOT failed DPC as I first thought but porous brickwork. Bricks 120 yrs old don't perform too well acting like a sponge! I had ***** come in and they repaired all defective bricks, waterproofed the whole house and applied tough exterior almost fibreglass 'paint' finish, after 6 months house was feeling dried after 12 months ALL wall damp has gone! If its not your DPC is defective bricks. I wish I had 3" water under the house; I got 2 feet of the stuff!.... work in progress!

Hi did you sort your problem out,have same problem,house built 1984,would filling with concrete solve problem..void is about 4 foot, water up to 2 feet

 

[JohnD]

If for some reason you can't find and correct the fault, a sump pump would be cheaper and easier.

Do you live on a hill, with groundwater or rain getting in? Or is it a plumbing or drain leak?