What do you think of these plans?

[indus]

Thanks Freddy. I get the point you make that some things can't be done piece meal by suggestions over the internet.

However when you use expressions like 'bag of spanners' etc I can't tell whether you are joking (which is fine) or whether you see something on the drawings that is a complete no no or disaster.

I will as you have suggested concentrate for now on the amended proposed plans. I'll get them tidied up next week. I'd like to post them up and get your feedback, even though I understand what you have said that it will be limited.

Woody, when you said get rid of the hips did you mean the hip you see on the front elevation of the gf element? If so do you mean it would have a gabled end facing the front.

Many thanks

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Maybe bag of spanners is a bit strong. Maybe?

The thing is, if it was well drawn and to scale it could look a whole lot better. Maybe. But until its drawn correctly you'll not know.

Personally (have I not dropped enough hints yet) I would be seriously considering cutting your losses with your existing 'designer' and going elsewhere. In the grand scheme of things spending say another £600 or so on another application is not much to ensure you don't mess up a perfectly nice looking period house.

 

[indus]

Thanks.

Even though it will be awkward with my current agent (who has sort of become a 'friend' over the years) I think I'll follow your advice and try another agent.

It will really be as a 'second opinion' if you like and to reassure me that the design is as good as it can be given all other circumstances. It may be that the new agent comes up with exactly the same design but just a prettier drawing. However given that the build will cost me circa £150k another circa £1000 spent with another agent is probably worth it for the peace of mind.

My question now is at what stage should I do this?

I'm in discussions with the planners at the moment as I mentioned. Shall I get these amended proposed plans tidied up properly by the current agent and then try and get them passed? At least then I'll have the footprint agreed and then go to the new agent and ask him to actually 'design' the extension?

He may well have to resubmit plans if his design is different but if the footprint has been agreed then it should be relatively easy to get it passed

Thanks again for your help

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Its up to you Indus. You can let this on fail and the get your new agent to resubmit a new scheme on this fee if you like.

For what its worth I think any kind of single storey extension on the front elevation is probably inappropriate on that house.

 

[indus]

Thanks.

Yes, that was my biggest fear that the single storey portion just won't work. This will be a big blow as in our minds we have already got the additional space and made plans how to use it!

The real test for the new agent will be whether he can design the single storey element so that it does blend in.

If there is to be no single storey element and gf and ff must be aligned then the size of the proposed extension will be massively reduced..Which of course will be a huge disappointment.

Perhaps the only thing that would work there is some sort of garage


Thanks again

 

[^woody^]

Woody, when you said get rid of the hips did you mean the hip you see on the front elevation of the gf element? If so do you mean it would have a gabled end facing the front.

Both hips front and side and GF an FF. And not a front facing gable either.

Possibly a mono-pitch roof at GF level sloping backwards, and replicate the existing gable to the FF extension like you have in one of your earlier plans.

 

[indus]

Woody, when you said get rid of the hips did you mean the hip you see on the front elevation of the gf element? If so do you mean it would have a gabled end facing the front.

Both hips front and side and GF an FF. And not a front facing gable either.

Possibly a mono-pitch roof at GF level sloping backwards, and replicate the existing gable to the FF extension like you have in one of your earlier plans.

Thanks Woody.

We did consider a mono pitched roof. The problem was that as it slopes upwards and backwards by the time it hits the large stained glass window that serves the stairs it will cover about two thirds of it. In other words we'll lose most of that window.

I really wanted to retain that window as not only does it give light to the stairs and upstairs landing but it is also one of the biggest period features of the house.

With the double pitched roof we were going to lose about one third of that window which was just about acceptable. Hence the double pitched roof idea.

If the amended proposed plans are accepted then your idea can be done easily. In the proposed plans the ff element will come forward and we'll build over that stained glass window at ff level and just transplant it in it's entirety across to the side of the newly made part.


Thanks again

 

[indus]

I had also noticed that my neighbour (who has a near identical house) had a double pitched roof on his garage and it looks fine. I suppose the difference is though it's a detached garage and not part of the house as mine would be

 

[Polstar]

what about a mono-pitch over the single storey front projection up to the stair window, but cut into it and flat roof beneath the stair window? Shuffle the first floor front windo to suit?

Maybe even get rid of the stair window and re-use the stain glass else where?

 

[indus]

what about a mono-pitch over the single storey front projection up to the stair window, but cut into it and flat roof beneath the stair window? Shuffle the first floor front windo to suit?

Maybe even get rid of the stair window and re-use the stain glass else where?

Hi Polstar.

We did consider the first option. The problem is that the window is quite low. The internal ceilings are high and so for continuity of ceiling height in the proposed single storey element the external height will have to start of quite high.

So by the time the slope of the pitched roof hits the window a large proportion would be covered even if it became flat at that point.

Losing the window altogether would really be a disaster as it floods the stairwell with light and really adds to the charm of the house.

If the proposed amended plans are accepted I can build at ff level across that window and just move the window across into the extension.

So as you can probably tell now many designs were considered but they all had some sort of negative impact. That's how we ended up where we are now. So even though it may have seemed the current design is just something random thrown up by the agent it's not.

The agent has responded to my demands I suppose.

The bottom line though is that I am unhappy with the external aesthetic and something needs to be done.

Tnanks again for your help.

 

[indus]

As suggested I contacted another agent via email. I chose one that has done about 3 houses on my street and whose drawings always looked 'nice' when I've viewed them on the local council website.

I didn't tell him about what has already passed as I thought it would be better to get a new design from scratch with no baggage.

His quotation for fees to prepare and submit planning drawings (not BR) were £2200!

And he warned that after a site visit this maybe more depending on scope of work involved

Perhaps this is why I employed an agent who was, how can I put it, 'basic'?

My current agent charged me about £1400 but that included BR and all SE fees as well.

Now I really don't know what to do. £2200 is a lot of money and I don't know even if I spent it whether it would help.

If I asked the new agent to stick by my current criteria ie that gf is staggered 2m, ff staggered a further 5m and preserve the stair window I wonder if he is going to come up with pretty much the same design.

To make it look better he might just suggest that the gf is staggered back to the same level as ff so there is only one additional roof rather than two and the whole design looks simpler.

But I know this myself, it's just that such a design reduces gf space gain.

I really don't know what to do now and would appreciate some advice. I know people have said that design cannot be done piecemeal over the internet. However can you really see the new agent coming up with some ingenious better design if the ff element sits 5m behind the gf?

Aren't the options basically this?

1) Stick with the approved plans with the large stagger and this will give me maximal space but potentially a very messy looking design

2) Stagger the gf the same amount as the ff so that they are flush and there is no single storey element. This would mean a cleaner design with one additional roof and because it is all staggered back more a far less imposing design. But of course I lose 5m worth of gf space

Your thoughts would be appreciated

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Firstly I would have mentioned the situation you are in and how you have arrived here and ask him how he would recommend going forward. Are the existing cad drawings from your original chap useable as a starter (assuming he will release them) or are they so inaccurate/rubbish that your new chappy has to do a survey and start right at the beginning or what? He would then assess your project from a totally different perspective rather than just starting it as a whole new project. If he's any good I would expect him to find your previous and current applications online anyway and start asking you questions! Surely he came out to see you at your property or is this not a formal quote just an over the phone estimate?

For example you could appoint him to do a little feasibility initially to see what he comes up with rather than just appointing him to redo everything.

As an overall fee he sounds a little expensive to me and its not just about whether his drawings look nice its what they show, do the extensions sit well with the existing, do the layouts work well etc. But that said its all relative, if you went to a big commercial practice you could pay say £6K+. You should consider others anyway. Your first 'designer' was cheap as chips so not surprised you ended up with the pile of doodoo you ended up with. As a rough guide I'd be closer to your first guy @ £1400 (less probably) but with Building Regs/SE on top but that's just me.

The option ' Stick with the approved plans with the large stagger and this will give me maximal space but potentially a very messy looking design' is plain bonkers. Why on earth would you build something that looks messy?

Sometimes you can't do everything you want Indus, maybe you can't achieve all of the space you want inside without compromising elsewhere and vice versa but that's what you pay your designer for but if he's not a good designer ........

 

[indus]

Thanks Freddy, I wasn't sure whether to mention what had gone on before to him or not. I thought it would be nice to get a perspective with a fresh set of eyes as it were.

I'm pretty sure the cad drawings are accurate, or as accurate as these drawings ever are!

I have electronic copies of these drawings, would these be good enough for the new agent or does he need some kind of 'original'? The new agent of course has priced the job as if he needs to come and survey the site afresh.

He hasn't been out to see me. This quote was via phone/email. He said if I found the quote acceptable then he would come around, see what was involved and then give me a hard quote.

Freddy you misunderstood me when I said


The option ' Stick with the approved plans with the large stagger and this will give me maximal space but potentially a very messy looking design'

I'm not saying that I was going to do this, not at all. What I meant was there are really only two options, in that if I have the hugely staggered design it will always look bad no matter who designs it. And therefore my only option to make it look 'right' is to lose the gorund floor element that sits proud and accept, as you said, that you can't have everything.

Freddy, I'm not asking you to redesign my plans for free but I'd be really really grateful if you can answer this question.

Having seen what my house looks like from the photos, can you see anyway that anybody could redesign things to make the staggered design look coherent?

Just to be clear, I'm not asking you to do it or explain how you would do it but just whether you feel it can be done.

My gut feeling is that it can't be done.

Many thanks for your help

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

You should definitely get your new chap and any other possible guys round for a chat and a visit and explain how you have arrived at this juncture for reasons previously mentioned. They'll all be happy to pop round for an hour or so if not they're not worth bothering with. Then get their measured written response/quote rather than a phone estimate which could be low (because he wants the job) or high (because he doesn't want to shoot himself in the foot so pretty useless really).

Yes I think it can be done but probably not with a 5m single storey extension. Maybe your single storey extension at the front is 2m or 3m instead of 5m, altering the ground floor extension roof to make it a corner hip or pitched from back to front or pitched from side to side; I suspect they would all look better than the hip end that has been approved. But these will be at the cost of floor area and maybe your stairs window. It has been suggested that if you want to retain this feature (and why not I agree it is worth trying to retain) then maybe relocate it higher up or elsewhere, PP and floor plan permitting (we've still not seen these). Maybe these are the compromises that you need to bear if you want the front extension to look right. I'm repeating myself again;

Sometimes you can't do everything you want Indus, maybe you can't achieve all of the space you want inside without compromising elsewhere and vice versa

If you're not prepared to compromise on the inside area then maybe the compromise is that its an ugly add-on. Again another compromise!

The point is until somebody draws these options on a reasonable looking drawing or does a simple model we'll never know. Sometimes what sounds good in theory doesn't look so good on a drawing and vice versa. Its not a reluctance to help you Indus but there are limits to what can be achieved on a forum.

 

[indus]

Thanks Freddy that is very useful.

I think the most important thing that has come out of this conversation is to get my options and directions clear ie

1) The large stagger (ie the approved plan)will not work and the aesthetic result will be poor. As a result I have rejected it and will NOT build it. I also now believe that nobody can make that work and so its best not to waste time pursuing it.

2) Having the gf and ff flush at a 2m stagger from the existing house has been informally rejected by the planners so that is out.

This now leaves me with two options

1) Pursue the amended plans. On these the gf element will project forward only 3m rather than the 5m+ as the ff element has been brought forward. It can only be 3m, no other dimensions other than 0, 3 or 5 work due to the internal layout.

This 3m projection will as you suggested lose the hipped roof. Personally I think the backwards sloped single pitch as suggested by yourself and woody would look best.

If this is rejected the only other option is

2) Have both the gf and ff staggered back 7m and flush at this point. This will of course lose me gf space but I have now mentally accepted this as an appropriate compromise to maintain aesthetic integrity.

This should be relatively 'easy' to design. The build would be way back from the main house and so naturally look far less bulky. There would also be one roof shape rather than two

All that space at the front ie 7m+ can have a new detached garage replacing the old derelict one. So the space will not be wasted as such.

Freddy (and others) your input has been very very helpful. It is genuinely appreciated.