What would you do?

[suts89]

Hi,

Have a bit of a dilemma concerning my kitchen floor and would be interested in any comments.


The first picture shows our extension just after completion in early 2011, the floor was fully tiled prior to the kitchen being installed. Rightly or wrongly it was done in this order due to lead time on kitchen and availability of tiler.

The second picture shows the kitchen installed.

To the untrained eye the room still looks the same however I have a number of floor tiles in the space which have become unstable. When I say unstable I haven’t lifted any yet but you can feel and hear movement underfoot.

The extension was built right across the rear of the house and opens up into the original rear sitting room. The floor in the new part is block and beam construction complete with 100mm insulation and 60mm screed. I believe the screed was not perfectly level when applied and the tiler had to apply some self-levelling compound which could be where I'm seeing loose tiles?

The floor in the original part of the house remained untouched and is traditional joists with a 12mm marine ply covering. In here the problem is more apparent and I believe the floor simply has too much spring in it. No expansion joint was placed between the two areas either!

What I would really like to do is lift all the tiles and re-tile. The biggest issues I can see is
that the whole extension was tiled prior to the kitchen and island being installed on top. Dismantling the kitchen fills me with dread.

The whole space old and new measures 52 square meters.

I guess what I’m asking is “what would you do” ?

 

[vinn]

You need to get a professional tiler, from a long established firm, on site for an opinion.

Many who advertise themselves as "tilers" are actually products of short tiling courses who attempt to learn at the client's expense.

Such chancers have typically no knowledge of construction, and no experience to spot potential difficulties down the line for the customer.

 

[Doggit]

As Vinn suggests, you need a competent tiler, but I suspect you're going to have to resign yourself to stripping the kitchen out in order to get the floor sorted.

You've got 12mm ply that needs increasing to 18mm (and posssibly 22) to take out the spring, and that would mean raising the extension. But if you can't raise the complete floor due to the bifold doors, then you'd need to lift the ply, and support it underneath. As you haven't reported any tiles cracking around the extension joint, I don't think you've got a lack of expansion joint issue.

 

[chappers]

I think the OP is saying that the original floor has been overlaid with 12mm ply. If so was it fixed sufficiently and what adhesive was used, it should have been S2 flexible.
Sounds like a prep or wrong materials job.
By the looks of it the tiler had some idea what he was doing, as that looks perfectly laid, level, flat, aligned, no lippage.
Do you have underfloor heating

 

[Doggit]

No question Chappers, it looks a very nice job, but as some tiles are coming loose, on the wood, he either didn't use flexible adhesive, or should have judges the 12mm would give insufficient support. But I don't think he's got much excuse on the screeded part of the floor, although we don't yet know if it's the SLC that has delaminated, or the tiles from the SLC.

 

[suts89]

Guys,

Thanks for the input it is really appreciated, and i think all of your points hold value.

One of the big issues i had on this build and from a personal view point is that i work away from home and was not able to oversea the complete job!

Yes i have UFH in both the new part and the original. God only knows if the adhesive used was suitable for UFH but that aspect has certainly crossed my mind!

Yes it does look good on the pictures and in the beginning i couldn't complain, it is/was very flat without any lippage at all. The spacing and grouting was perfect. When i say flat i know the screed wasnt great and thats why he had to use SLC in places before tiling.

Yes the original floor was overlaid with the 12mm ply, straight to the joist not on top of the boards. It is interesting you mention a thicker ply could have helped with any spring in floor.

The tiles have/are feeling loose at the join between old and new but like you say i think maybe an expansion joint would have helped? The grout line is directly at the join and i think the an expansion joint could have overcome any movement on one side of this line?

God only knows if the products used throughout the job were correctly speced!

In your experience and going from the limited info you have from me how difficult will it be to lift these tiles?

Stripping out the kitchen will be a tough pill to swallow!! Am i right in saying its not common practice to tile before installing the kitchen?

Ok

Cheers

 

[Doggit]

If you install the kitchen units, and then tile up to them, you're then donald ducked if you ever want to change the layout of the kitchen. But for a lot of people, they'd only tile the complete floor first if you were going to have legs and no plinths under the units. There's no right and wrong on this one, so don't beat yourself up over it.

I'm not sue if I can agree with you on the expansion joint causing an issue, as you'd have two tiles pusing horizontally up against each other if it was an expansion issue. It's more likely to be that the 12mm ply is allowing more movement than the screeded floor, and they hadn't provided sufficient support under the edge of the ply where it meets the extension floor; but if the ply was allowing too much movement, then it would always be a place to go, as the other end of the tile would be tilting.

 

[chappers]

12mm ply only isn't really sufficient should have been 18mm minimum.
As you say diagnosis from afar is difficult there are so many reasons, but a combination of insufficient subfloor and maybe incorrect adhesive seem most likely, if some of it is coming loose now then it will all probably go eventually.
Then you can add in the possibility of the UFH causing problems. After first laying and being screeded it should have been left for a week and then brought up to operating temperature slowly over another week or so to prevent cracking of the screed. then should have been shut off for 48hrs minimum before tiling and then again left for 48hrs minimum and again brought up to temperature gradually.
As for lifting the tiles, if they are coming loose they should come up easily enough, but you will probably lose a few, the other thing is the larger the format the tile the harder they will be to get them up without breaking.
I think you need to ask the tiler exactly what he did and what materials he used, did he prime the timber, did he use SLC over the timber, if so was it a flexi fibre screed, what adhesive did he use over the timber floor etc etc.
If you pull any up a shot of the space where the tile was and the back of the tile would enable us to see if a sufficient bed of adhesive was used.

In all honesty you could probably get away without stripping out under the kitchen as they probably wont come loose as they aren't walked on

 

[suts89]

Gents,

Thanks for all the comments certainly food for thought.

I think for sure all my problems stem from poor sub floor preparation and/or incorrect adhesive/SLC!

If and when i start this project i dont plan to use the same tiles so damage will not be an issue.

I don't plan on contacting the tiler as i,m sure he will not accept any responsibility.

I,ll try and remember some pictures when i get round to starting this ball ache of a job.

PS apologies to the mods for duplicating my thread.

Cheers

 

[Doggit]

I'd actually contact the tiler and discuss it with him. It may well give you an insight for when you redo the job. Knowledge is power as they say. You can see from the pictures that he did a good job, so best to find where the fault lay, so that error can be avoided next time.

 

[chappers]

I agree, also that's very generous of you that's a big cost to suck up if it turns out he's at fault

 

[suts89]

I hear what you guys are saying but i,m going to pass. His work has turned to crap so i don't really want his input. 6/7 years is a long time and i cant imagine many tradesman admitting to inferior workmanship and/or offering nay financial refund?

Knowledge is power your right and you guys on this forum have loads of knowledge on this subject which will no doubt come in handy once i get started.

 

[suts89]

Just read this while going through some other threads.

Conventional PVA is not waterproof & will re-emulsify when it gets wet, it should not be used to prime a tiling base. Do not use anything else to prime a tiling base either unless your chosen adhesive manufacturer recommends it.

Like i said in the first post i work away and so was not on site most of the time however an alarm bell has just rang in my little mind and i,m sure the screed-ed floor was PVA'd ! If this was the case do you guys think this could be a contributor to my problems?

Cheers

 

[Doggit]

PVA will emulsify when wet, but should also dry again as the adhesive dries, so unless you've got a leak in the floor, or the screed wasn't completely dry when the tiles went down, I'm not sure it would have caused a problem. If the tilers good enough to get the floor that flat, I can't see him making such a simple mistake, so you may find the problems with the SLC delaminating - and he should have used an acrylic primer for that.

 

[suts89]

Okay its been a while but thought it only fair to resurrect this thread so the guys who offered there thoughts could see what was under the floor when i eventually lifted it last week.

https://ibb.co/sJSD8RV

https://ibb.co/zVRL94Q

Every tile lifted looked like this.