Why is bldg reg Part P still out of date?

[mattylad]

Why does approved document P still quote BS7671:2001?

It kind of indicates that work should be carried out to the 16th

Shouldn't they have updated it by now?

 

[Spark123]

It only refers to the 16th edition of the regs for the definition of "special locations". Certain work in these special locations is still notifiable.
They will hopefully update it next time they make a building regs amendment.

 

[mattylad]

Have you not read it recently then?

Page 7, general guidance:
In the Secretary of States View, the requirements will be met by
adherance to the "fundamental principles " for safety given in BS7671:2001 Chapter13.

And so on on several pages, saying nowt about being specific to special locations. It is very specific about saying that in general work that is done to the above version is showing that it is meeting the requirements.

Surely it should have been updated if they want people to work to the 17th. ???

Especialy if they want us DIY'rs to follow it as we may not know about the 17th.

 

[ericmark]

I was a little surprised it says BS 7671:2001 instead of just BS 7671 myself and it does may one wonder what is going on in domestic market. But reading the document it contradicts itself anyway. It says you must be Qualified to make out the Installation certificate but 1.27 building control will not issue BS 7671 installation certificate so they are saying you don't need an installation certificate yet you are to follow BS 7671:2001 how can that be right? It also says "or in an equivalent standard approved by a member of the EEA;" So gets away with referring to BS7671:2001 but what is a "BS 7671 completion certificate"? 1.23 Oh and it only "may" need a full set of inspection and test reports for full rewire. And "The building control body then becomes responsible for making sure that the work is safe and complies with all relevant requirements in the Building Regulations" 1.24 yet they issued a completion certificate on the strength of the Installing Certificate submitted and never visited the house I worked on after completion of work. The LABC is a complete waist of time in my area. I have had to chase the council to put their own building in order with no RCD's and wires still sticking out of the wall 15 years after first built where the installation was never completed. No hard wired smoke alarms in their flats and unsuitable fused spur units above bath. Seeing what their own housing is like I don't think I would ever trust them to work in my house. Lets face it the Deputy Prime Minister was more suited to bopping the mentally retarded on Rhyl front than working out what was required in home electrical systems.

 

[Spark123]

Have you not read it recently then?

Page 7, general guidance:
In the Secretary of States View, the requirements will be met by
adherance to the "fundamental principles " for safety given in BS7671:2001 Chapter13.

And so on on several pages, saying nowt about being specific to special locations. It is very specific about saying that in general work that is done to the above version is showing that it is meeting the requirements.

Surely it should have been updated if they want people to work to the 17th. ???

Especialy if they want us DIY'rs to follow it as we may not know about the 17th.

Yes, I have read what the law says. The 16th edition of BS7671 is only mentioned the once in law, as shown here in the amendment to the building regulations issued back in 2004: SI 2004:3210.
If you are going to follow the 17th edition then it may be deemed that you are complying with P1 by following a national standard. You do not have to follow BS7671 to comply with the building regulatoins, it is only one method of showing complaince.

 

[mattylad]

And how may I ask, does someone find that from the same site that tells everyone all about part P?

The approved document is wrong, the site has no further links to any amendments on it on the pages for part P.

And the amendment that you linked to says absolutely nothing about revoking the statements that are in part P regarding referring to the 17th instead of the 16th.

As such regardless of what the law actually says, the government website is still giving advice that work can be done to the 16th instead of the 17th. IMO they need to play catchup & either amend it or make a note on the download pages about it.

 

[mattylad]

It only refers

you said nowt about "the law" I was talking about the part P document & you replied to that. the part P says "working to the 16th is OK" (in essence).

 

[Spark123]

And how may I ask, does someone find that from the same site that tells everyone all about part P?

The approved document is wrong, the site has no further links to any amendments on it on the pages for part P.

The document you are referring to is guidance, it is out of date yes.
The document you refer to is not the law, it not "Part P" - just guidance on it.
You cannot be taken to court or fined for failure to comply with a guidance document.

And the amendment that you linked to says absolutely nothing about revoking the statements that are in part P regarding referring to the 17th instead of the 16th.

The document I referred to is the law which added "Part P" to the building regs, prior to it being amended later by SI652-2006. A consolidated version of the building regs can be read here: clicky
The law does not need to revoke anything in a guidance document.
The law only refers to the 16th edition once, in the description of a special location. The law does not say you need to work to the 16th edition, it does not say you have to work to the 17th edition, it says:
"P1 Reasonable provision shall be made in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installations from fire or injury."
How you feel you can satisfy the requirements of P1 is your decision, following the up to date version of BS7671 is one recognised method. Some may argue that following the 16th edition satisfies the requirements of P1 also.

 

[mattylad]

Where did I mention the law?

When a DIYr goes to look up what he does or does not need to do to comply with what we are told we have to do, which is comply with part P, we get sent to the part P approved document.

The document is out of date & wrong.

Because it is still the document that we are sent to read, it still advises us incorrectly.

The web pages the document is on do not mention or link to the location of the actual law.

Isn't there a requirement on the government to give us correct information? If so is there anything that we the public can do about it to get it changed?

 

[mattylad]

OK, seems like I have an answer.

I contacted the government & they actually replied.

Thank you for your e-mail.

The Department is currently working on a revised Approved Document P to accommodate the changes made by the 17th edition of the wiring regulations. It is hoped to publish this in the autumn. A copy will be available for use free of charge on the Department's website www.communities.gov.uk.

name withheld

 

[Spark123]

You mentioned "Building Reg Part P" in the title, which is the law.
If you want to pick on guidance material which is out of date referring to the 16th edition of BS7671 then take a look at the IETs own website, they still sell a majority of 16th edition guidance notes.

 

[mattylad]

If the guidance note is not the law then where is the part P then?

The act you pointed to introduced it, but it doesn't really have much in about it does it?

The approved document is what joe public gets sent to, it should be correct, it should have been corrected when the 17th came into force.

typical blooming government, piddle up & brewery are a couple of words that spring to mind

 

[Spark123]

What do you mean "if the guidance note is not the law"? It is guidance. It may offer you assistance in advising you how to comply with the law.
Part P is part of the building regs, if you like you can hunt through all of the statutory instruments to work out what the building regs say, or you can look at the consolidated version as I linked to above.
If you look at the consolidated version you will find an area marked up as "PART P ELECTRICAL SAFETY".
This gives the requirement required by law as "P1 Reasonable provision shall be made in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installations from fire or injury." It also tells you what type of building Part P is intended for.
If you then look at 2A and 2B these are to do with who can self certify and what is non-notifiable respecively.
This is what the law requires, nothing more and nothing less. How you comply with the law is up to you, you may choose to use a recognised standard.

 

[mattylad]

FFS! I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE BLOODY LAW!!!!
CANT YOU READ!

I wAs asking about the part P document that people get linked to when they search for part P on the government communities website.

NOT THE LAW!

And in case you missed it, I have posted the answer from the government themselves about the inaccurate within it.

STOP BEING SO BLOODY ARGUMENTative!

 

[Spark123]

Please refrain from swearing, it doesn't help.
How is replying to your questions being arguamentative?
Maybe you should reconsider your topic title, because "Why is bldg reg Part P still out of date?" is inferring to me that you consider the building reg Part P i.e. the law is out of date.