Wiki first safety page - THIRD DRAFT for final comments

[DetlefSchmitz]

(if you have an old-fashioned installation with two or more fuse boxes/boards, switch them all off).

'old-fashioned' is an unjustified value judgement. My house has two CUs for the house interior, both recently fitted.

Fair comment. My house actually has seven CUs (I think)! However, that statement wasn't meant to be a reference to multiple CUs. It was added in response to someone pointing out that there are still some installations (I think fairly reasonably described as 'old-fashioned'!) out there (like the ones I was brought up with as a child) which don't have CUs/DBs, but just a few (usually cast-iron) switch fuses.

Would you be happier if it said 'older', rather than 'old-fashioned' - or would you like to propose some alternative wording?

I'm assuming you are saying that more than one circuit can be present in an exposed item you are working on, and you need to ensure that all relevant circuits are switched off. However this is equally true with two CUs, as it is for two old fashioned switch fuses. Your writeup implies that you have one modern CU or multiple old fashioned switches. The possibility you leave out is multiple CUs. So I don't think the age is important but rather the number of switches.

 

[JohnW2]

I'm assuming you are saying that more than one circuit can be present in an exposed item you are working on, and you need to ensure that all relevant circuits are switched off. However this is equally true with two CUs, as it is for two old fashioned switch fuses. Your writeup implies that you have one modern CU or multiple old fashioned switches. The possibility you leave out is multiple CUs. So I don't think the age is important but rather the number of switches.

As I said, this wasn't of my doing - my initial draft just referred to the 'main switch'. As you say, what/all we need to say is that, to achieve equivalence to operating a single main switch (ifthat's what one wants to achieve), one should operate the switches of any/all CUs/DBs/Switchfuses/whatever, without the need for any reference to age. I'll make that change. Thanks.

Kind Regards, John

 

[stillp]

Any thoughts on the three alternatives for 'how to isolate'?

I prefer option 2, with the removal of the reference to "old-fashioned" already suggested, i.e., The only really safe approach is to switch off the ‘Main Switch’ of your Consumer Unit (CU) or fuse board, thereby switching off all electricity in your house (if you have two or more fuse boxes/boards, switch them all off). "

 

[JohnW2]

I prefer option 2, with the removal of the reference to "old-fashioned" already suggested, i.e., The only really safe approach is to switch off the ‘Main Switch’ of your Consumer Unit (CU) or fuse board, thereby switching off all electricity in your house (if you have two or more fuse boxes/boards, switch them all off). "

Thanks - but clarification is needed - all three options are 'Point 2'. The first (black & red text) is just called that, the second (in blue text) is called Alternative A and the third (green text) is called Alternative B. Please choose your colour

Kind Regards, John

 

[stillp]

I prefer option 2, with the removal of the reference to "old-fashioned" already suggested, i.e., The only really safe approach is to switch off the ‘Main Switch’ of your Consumer Unit (CU) or fuse board, thereby switching off all electricity in your house (if you have two or more fuse boxes/boards, switch them all off). "

Thanks - but clarification is needed - all three options are 'Point 2'. The first (black & red text) is just called that, the second (in blue text) is called Alternative A and the third (green text) is called Alternative B. Please choose your colour

Kind Regards, John

I did state "option 2", which I thought would be easily read as meaning "the second option".
The one in blue text, if that's not clear!

GOODNIGHT!

 

[JohnW2]

I did state "option 2", which I thought would be easily read as meaning "the second option". The one in blue text, if that's not clear!

I thought that's probably what you meant - but particularly since you are the only person so far who's offered me any help about this pretty crucial issue, I wanted to be sure.

Thanks for all your valuable help - enjoy the bar

Kind Regards, John

 

[scousespark]

Who is your target audience for this John?

If it's a novice, I would say there is too much to read. Given that hardly anybody reads the current wiki (as evidenced by the number of posts which could be referred to the wiki). The points covered are valid (not sure about the marigolds) but the document could get this across in a more succint fashion.

There is no easy advice on isolation. Given that a lot of diyers won't have a GS38 tester, the sensible approach is to tell them to switch off at the CU(s). This would negate the need to distinguish between TT an TN supplies. Even this is not ideal and a check should be made to check the circuit is dead. Working on an isolated circuit alongside live circuits should only be done by experienced people.

I'd also question whether the instructions to use a ceiling rose to prove the teter is working. This would put a novice up a ladder, working overhead on a live circuit.

I'm not too sure about the advice to put your free hand behind you back or in your pocket. I'd say the safest place for your free hand is in front of you where you can see it. On H&S courses I've been on, long hair is seen as a hazrd because it can obscure your view, not because it increases your chance of electrocution.

 

[JohnW2]

Who is your target audience for this John?

I suppose anyone and everyone who feels the need to read about basic electrical safety - but one has to assume that a substantial proportion of those who feel such a need will be 'serious novices'. As you presumably understand, the motive is to try to replace the unstructured collection of fairly random bits of advice in the 'ELECTRICS SAFETY' sticky (which, as I write, has had 312,569 views) with something clearer, more structured and more comprehensive. However, I'm largely just 'the messenger' as far as this task is concerned (no-one else seemed to be volunteering!), so please don't shoot me too many times!

If it's a novice, I would say there is too much to read.

That's certainly a potential issue. In my first draft, I tried to make it as succinct as possible (whilst including all the points which were in the sticky), but people have been gradually asking me to add more and more 'detail'. There is clearly a balance to be struck.

Given that hardly anybody reads the current wiki (as evidenced by the number of posts which could be referred to the wiki). The points covered are valid (not sure about the marigolds) but the document could get this across in a more succint fashion.

See above comments. As for readership, we obviously cannot tell how many people look at the wiki, but we do know that there has been nearly a third of a milllion views of the sticky. The tentative plan (mods permitting) is for the 'sticky' to remain there (so as to be immediately and prominently visible to everyone coming to the forum), but for it to simply link to the new wiki page.

There is no easy advice on isolation. Given that a lot of diyers won't have a GS38 tester, the sensible approach is to tell them to switch off at the CU(s). This would negate the need to distinguish between TT an TN supplies. Even this is not ideal and a check should be made to check the circuit is dead. Working on an isolated circuit alongside live circuits should only be done by experienced people.

That seems to be the emerging view from those few have commented. It is obviously the safest approach. My main concern is that many people probably won't do it, whatever we advise, and that by not mentioning any other approaches, we lose the opportunity to give any advice relating to approaches which many may actually adopt.

I'd also question whether the instructions to use a ceiling rose to prove the teter is working. This would put a novice up a ladder, working overhead on a live circuit.

I agree. We discussed this, and I really don't know what best to suggest. It's all very well telling people that they should/must acquire a voltage detector and should/must 'prove' it before testing for dead, but we then have to advise them how to do that proving - what would you suggest (whilst remaining succinct)?

I'm not too sure about the advice to put your free hand behind you back or in your pocket. I'd say the safest place for your free hand is in front of you where you can see it.

Following discussions here, I've removed that.

On H&S courses I've been on, long hair is seen as a hazrd because it can obscure your view, not because it increases your chance of electrocution.

I would certainly think that's true (and getting it caught in machinery etc.). This was added as a result of comments/suggestions (and it's also in the current sticky).

The whole thing is difficult, particularly if one tries to bring 'realism' (or even 'pragmatism') into it. We are writing for an audience, some of whom will 'know nothing'. At least some people feel that we must stick to only 'party-line (i.e. 'proper'/ideal) safety advice', even though that advice will undoubtedly not be heeded by many who read it. That applies almost across the board. I suspect that many average DIYers will not acquire a 2-pole tester (other than perhaps a cheap multimeter) (let alone a means of 'connecting' it), will not prove it even if they acquire one, will certainly not aquire a 'proving unit' so that they can undertake 'after test' proving and will not use DP isolation (even with TT systems). That leaves us not offering much advice at all to that 'many' in relation to what they probably will actually be doing - but we may well feel unable/uninclined to offer advice in relation to those 'non-advised' practices!

So, it's a problem, but I don't think we should use this as an excuse for 'giving up' and not offering any reasonable safety advice at all. Those third of a million who have looked at the sticky have just seen a few unstructured 'bits and pieces' statements about safety. That is hardly ideal, and I really think that we ought to be able to do better for those seeking safety advice in the forum in the future. Ultimately, it is for those members of the forum who can be bothered to contribute to determine what, if anything, gets put into the wiki - I've just been acting as a 'tool' ( )

Kind Regards, John