Zoned systems: A technological dead end which needs to shuffle off to the tech graveyard??

[BlueLoo]

For reference, by "Zoned" i mean the typical Y plan, S plan, 2 - 3 zone systems typically controlled by spring return actuated valves on circuit supply lines.

Reading all of the posts about knackered zone valves and my own experience with my Drayton-Wiser smart system, i can't help that zoned systems are a dead duck.

The wiser system is easier to install, has far less wiring, less plumbing no big, heavy and unreliable multi port valves (except the HW circuit), and turns every heater into its own zone which can be controlled via voice or apps on either an individual level or a gross "zone" level.

From install costs alone, i can't see the justification of continuing with them. For usability, i certainly can't see the point in continuing.

I bet the overall cost of a reasonable sized system is like-like for the new vs old tech, in fact, i'd say its cheaper.

Do the plumbers on here think otherwise?

I know Harry the dinosaur doesn't like them, but the world moves on and we have moved past the era of on-off technology

Thoughts?

 

[RandomGrinch]

I get your point, but I live in a basically two up two down, Victorian terrace. Variations on this theme make up the majority of the housing stock in my area.
To heat this house economically, it doesn't need any more than an on/off downstairs room stat (Nest in my case) and TRV's in the bedrooms.
Even smart TRV's in this case may be OTT!

 

[denso13]

Even smart TRV's in this case may be OTT!

Same here, decent sized house, downstairs programmable thermostat in the hall and TRV's on the radiators. Works well.

 

[Alec_t]

Same here

And here. I really can't see the justification in installing smart thermostats on rads just so that I can control the system via some app on the one or two occasions per year when that might be useful.

 

[bernardgreen]

Same here, 500 year old cottages like old fashioned systems. No point in having zones as all the internal doors have gaps above, below and on both sides

 

[BlueLoo]

I get your point, but I live in a basically two up two down, Victorian terrace. Variations on this theme make up the majority of the housing stock in my area.
To heat this house economically, it doesn't need any more than an on/off downstairs room stat (Nest in my case) and TRV's in the bedrooms.
Even smart TRV's in this case may be OTT!

Fair point for retrofit situations.

For new build heating systems (not houses) i still think they have better value.
You have the ability control temp as well as time.

So for a two bed terrace (usually poorly insulated/constructed so heating demand is higher than a new house),
Kitchen/back room: Heating on in the morning and evening during times of high occupancy, Set to 20c. A set back temp of 18c during non occupancy times to keep the chillout of the rooms but not have the heating on when not really needed. Heating off at night.
Living room: Heating off except the evening when its set to a high comfortable 22c. Rad valve will shut the zone off itself if a fire is roaring away (as would a trv but still...)
Hall, stairs and landing: setback to 18c all times.
Bedrooms: Setback to 18c until late evening or early mornings (rise/bed times) when its set to 21c for comfort.
Bathrooms: setback to 18c normally until bedtimes/mornings when set to 21c for comfort.
All rooms can be boosted or cancelled by the occupant at any time.

I get the idea of zonal approach of downstairs warm in the evening, upstairs warm at night, but its a fairly low res solution. Harry's missus doesn't like it that much in her bedroom as she doesn't really have control of her own temps.

For the especially frugal, you can limit the heating to a single room at any time. A great way to save money when its tight.

 

[BlueLoo]

Same here, 500 year old cottages like old fashioned systems. No point in having zones as all the internal doors have gaps above, below and on both sides

So heating all of the draughty cold cottage regardless of what rooms are used or when is a better idea than being selective with the heat based on need?
I'm glad you have the money and the carbon credits to do that.

The days of heating every part of a house are drawing to a close. (already are for those who are **** poor)

 

[RandomGrinch]

Fair point for retrofit situations.

For new build heating systems (not houses) i still think they have better value.
You have the ability control temp as well as time.

So for a two bed terrace (usually poorly insulated/constructed so heating demand is higher than a new house),
Kitchen/back room: Heating on in the morning and evening during times of high occupancy, Set to 20c. A set back temp of 18c during non occupancy times to keep the chillout of the rooms but not have the heating on when not really needed. Heating off at night.
Living room: Heating off except the evening when its set to a high comfortable 22c. Rad valve will shut the zone off itself if a fire is roaring away (as would a trv but still...)
Hall, stairs and landing: setback to 18c all times.
Bedrooms: Setback to 18c until late evening or early mornings (rise/bed times) when its set to 21c for comfort.
Bathrooms: setback to 18c normally until bedtimes/mornings when set to 21c for comfort.
All rooms can be boosted or cancelled by the occupant at any time.

I get the idea of zonal approach of downstairs warm in the evening, upstairs warm at night, but its a fairly low res solution. Harry's missus doesn't like it that much in her bedroom as she doesn't really have control of her own temps.

For the especially frugal, you can limit the heating to a single room at any time. A great way to save money when its tight.

As a tech lover, your approach appeals.
In reality it just isn't necessary in my situation.
Basically Nest is set to 19 and stays there, when we are in. With partner working from home and a toddler, that means permanently!
We occasionally boost in the evening.
Once the living room is up to temp, there is enough heat coming up to warm the rooms above. The TRV's in the bedroom are practically off.
There is also the heat coming from the neighbours in the terrace, which can sometimes be considerable!
The one situation that would really benefit from smart TRV's in our case, would be an individual boost for the bathroom in the morning.
With this type of usage, Nest is showing 1.75hrs of heating demand per day, on average this week.

 

[CBW]

I live in a new build, which is heavily insulated, open vented s plan system.

No need for “smart” technology imo, plus can you really see house builders fitting this stuff for the cost? They’ll fit necessary heating/hot water systems, not more expensive stuff, for no additional return.

 

[BlueLoo]

As a tech lover, your approach appeals.
In reality it just isn't necessary in my situation.
Basically Nest is set to 19 and stays there when we are in. With partner working from home and a toddler, that means permanently!
We occasionally boost in the evening.
Once the living room is up to temp, there is enough heat coming up to warm the rooms above. The TRV's in the bedroom are practically off.
There is also the heat coming from the neighbours in the terrace, which can sometimes be considerable!
The one situation that would really benefit from smart TRV's in our case, would be an individual boost for the bathroom in the morning.
In this case, Nest is showing 1.5hrs of heating demand per day, on average this week.

This reminds me of the videos from the bloke on Youtube ranting about retrofitting HP systems into the UK's old housing stock.
It is really difficult to change the heat profile of house from that which is was originally designed for.
Yours is a half way house to my OP. You have the smart controls, you have central heating, you have TRV bodies on the rads. the only thing missing is smart TRV heads.
Maybe in the future, you will, like i did, service the TRV's and find them mostly knackered. At which point it isn't a big change to change to smart versions and the benefits they bring.

So whilst in existing installations with high occupancy, small footprint housing, immediate change isn't a no brainer (and my OP wasn't really about retrofit situations tbh), for refurbs, new builds or people who want a more dynamic heating control, i can't see anything to justify the old way of continuing.

 

[BlueLoo]

I live in a new build, which is heavily insulated, open vented s plan system.

No need for “smart” technology imo, plus can you really see house builders fitting this stuff for the cost? They’ll fit necessary heating/hot water systems, not more expensive stuff, for no additional return.

Does your new build not have a heat pump installed?

 

[denso13]

All rooms can be boosted or cancelled by the occupant at any time.

In theory it sounds good but, for example, Mrs denso gets cold and turns the heating up, then gets too hot and opens the windows (leaving the heating on). I don't think I'd get far explaining the intricacies of opentherm and setbacks....

 

[BlueLoo]

In theory it sounds good but, for example, Mrs denso gets cold and turns the heating up, then gets too hot and opens the windows (leaving the heating on). I don't think I'd get far explaining the intricacies of opentherm and setbacks....

I hear you.

After months of arguing about "being cold" rather than "it is cold", i changed the dinosauric wheel thermostats in my new build house to digital which showed the actual temperature rather than the expected temperature.

It didn't stopped the arguments though, just changed the direction!

"the heating isn't working!"
"yes it is"
"the rads are off"
"yes because, thermostat"
"but its cold"
"No, you are cold, its xx C as shown on the stat"
"Turn it back on then"
"it IS on"
" turn it up"
.......
.......
.......
"It's too hot, turn the heating off"
"It's off"
"But the rads are still on"
"because the room has just reached its new temperature"
and so on and so forth.....

 

[Alec_t]

For the especially frugal, you can limit the heating to a single room at any time.

Not in an open-plan house, which seems increasingly popular these days.

 

[CBW]

Does your new build not have a heat pump installed?

No it doesn’t, and I wouldn’t want one until I know it’ll work. I say new build, it’s 11 years old, but still relatively new.