Boilermate 2000

[Agile]

Two pages on, I am left wondering if the question raised by OP has been answered.

While I am familiar with Boilermate brandname, 2000 does not ring a bell. A boilermate (I normally work on) would have a pump between the gas boiler and the cylinder to heat water in the cylinder (this gives you hot water at the tap). Pump between the cylinder and the rads runs to heat the house. So, if no heat, check this pump. If no hot water, then check pump between cylinder and boiler. Or even, boiler may have a defect on it.

Dont worry Danny! Thats what this 2000 has!

The only difference is that rather than a DHW heating coil in the cylinder it has a ( third ) pump to run the store contents through the plate HE.

More complication than a DHW heating coil in the store and more cost I would have expected with no significate benefit.

Whilst good in their day, the expectation of storing water at 80°C is not compatible with efficient condensing boiler operation.

Tony

 

[Softus]

The only difference is that rather than a DHW heating coil in the cylinder it has a ( third ) pump to run the store contents through the plate HE.

And more sensors, and more PCB logic, and more software.

More complication than a DHW heating coil in the store and more cost I would have expected with no significate benefit.

Descaling is easier.
Diagnosis is easier.
The 2000 is more reliable.

Those benefits are significant, IMHO.

Whilst good in their day, the expectation of storing water at 80°C is not compatible with efficient condensing boiler operation.

More like 72-75°C, and it's an off-topic point anyway.

 

[Agile]

Descaling is easier.

Those benefits are significant, IMHO.

Whilst good in their day, the expectation of storing water at 80°C is not compatible with efficient condensing boiler operation.

More like 72-75°C, and it's an off-topic point anyway.

I agree that descaling is a little easier and can be done off site is a spare is available.

However, the MI specify a boiler flow temperature of 82°C which is of course so high its why the scaling occurs ( with a vengeance in some areas! ).

Operating at a condensing boiler flow temperature of 70°C should give efficiency and greatly reduce scaling but will reduce the maximum DHW flow rate.

I have as yet not heard of anyone operating one of these with a condensing boiler.

Tony

 

[BigBurner]

The only difference is that rather than a DHW heating coil in the cylinder it has a ( third ) pump to run the store contents through the plate HE.

And more sensors, and more PCB logic, and more software.

More complication than a DHW heating coil in the store and more cost I would have expected with no significate benefit.

Descaling is easier.
Diagnosis is easier.
The 2000 is more reliable.

Those benefits are significant, IMHO.

Whilst good in their day, the expectation of storing water at 80°C is not compatible with efficient condensing boiler operation.

More like 72-75°C, and it's an off-topic point anyway.

The advantages are clear. The Boilermate, learns the boilers maximum heat output and runs accordingly. It is self adaptive. It also learns how long it takes the boiler to reheat the cylinder to bring it in at the right moment. It even uses the DHW pump as a shunt pump when needed. It is very clever and sadly most plumbers don't have much of an idea of how and what it does. Lots of ignorance surrounds it.

Because plate heat exchangers are so efficient as they transfer 90% plus of thermal heat, the boiler can be set to around 70 to 75C instead of the old 80C using DHW copper coils

The operation of the store, being heated directly by the boiler, with no coil, uses thermal layer storage. This means it is heated top down. This is very efficient. The hot water at the top is then pumped out to a highly efficient DHW plate heat exchanger. The store only needs to be 10% heated and useful hot water is extracted. With the old copper coils nearly the whole store needed to be heated to get hot water. There is a massive difference between the plate heat X and coil heat X models.

Thermal layer storage also gives very cool water at the bottom of the cylinder enhancing condensing operation. The boilers will run in ciondesning mode until 80% plus of the store is heated. The DHW pump send cold water directly into the botom of the store.

If the store was heated via a boiler coil it is heated bottom up, which again is less efficient than being heated using thermal layer storage.

Directed heated via a boiler and using a DHW plate heat X is the best combination. Then the store acts a CH buffer evening out CH demand. The smart electronics of the Boilermate then makes it sing.

They had a reputation for sludge, although I have never come across it, because many were poorly fitted. A great product. Well thought out.

 

[BigBurner]

Descaling is easier.

Those benefits are significant, IMHO.

Whilst good in their day, the expectation of storing water at 80°C is not compatible with efficient condensing boiler operation.

More like 72-75°C, and it's an off-topic point anyway.

I agree that descaling is a little easier and can be done off site is a spare is available.

However, the MI specify a boiler flow temperature of 82°C which is of course so high its why the scaling occurs ( with a vengeance in some areas! ).

Look closer and they say it can be a lot less. Scale is not a big thing in Boilermate plate heat Xs. The plate resist scale more than coils.

Operating at a condensing boiler flow temperature of 70°C should give efficiency and greatly reduce scaling but will reduce the maximum DHW flow rate.

Not at all. The plate heat Xs are so efficient they transfer 90% plus of thermal heat. That is, 70C store temperature will give more than 60C at the taps. The Gledhill modulates the pump to get 55 to 60C at the taps. This preserves thermal layering in the store as well

I have as yet not heard of anyone operating one of these with a condensing boiler.

Tony

I know many and they work very well with them. A big plume when heating. The thermal layering of being heated directly is the key for efficient condensing operation.

 

[Agile]

Because plate heat exchangers are so efficient as they transfer 90% plus of thermal heat, the boiler can be set to around 70 to 75C instead of the old 80C using DHW copper coils

Thats all good to hear, but the MI for that model are still written for a boiler flow of 82°C. At that temperature the likelyhood of scaling is very high and many on here have described their thoughts when called to descale them so regularly.

Can you comment on the performance when used with a condensing boiler with the flow temp set at 70°C ? Do they still give a user friendly DHW flow or is it significantly worse?

Tony

 

[BigBurner]

Because plate heat exchangers are so efficient as they transfer 90% plus of thermal heat, the boiler can be set to around 70 to 75C instead of the old 80C using DHW copper coils

Thats all good to hear, but the MI for that model are still written for a boiler flow of 82°C. At that temperature the likelyhood of scaling is very high and many on here have described their thoughts when called to descale them so regularly.

Can you comment on the performance when used with a condensing boiler with the flow temp set at 70°C ? Do they still give a user friendly DHW flow or is it significantly worse?

Tony

THe Gledhill manual says this:
Boilers should provide a flow temperature of 82 ± 3°C but temperatures as low as 76°C will allow the BoilerMate 2000 to provide a satisfactory performance.

76C. If a whole bath is run off and the store temperature is around 10C, the boiler will raise that water say 35 to 40C. 10C returning to the boiler will guarantee high condensing operation. Even if the condensing boiler is set to 80C, 80% of reheat time will be in condensing mode and even more if set to 76C.

The modulating DHW pump ensures only very cold water returns to the cylinder. This gives a very cold spot at the bottom of the cylinder. This cold water then is pumped directly into the boilers return.

If a more square plate heat X was used instead of the long plate heat X used by Gledhill, the plates would flex more and scale build up reduced. Scale is only a real big problem in excessive hard water areas like Reading.

Thermal store heat banks (with plates heat Xs) set to 70C give very acceptable DHW performance and condense very well. Thermal layering does it all for you.

The Gledhill is set to 55C at the taps by modulating the pump. The CH will only operate when the store is over 60C. The pcb eliminates boiler cycling which can be very inefficient in thermal heat loss and burner start up. The vastly reduced stress on controls gives boilers a long life. Very neat indeed. If a preheated combustion air boiler is used, tertiary heat exchanger, cycling can reduce the high efficiency of these boilers. Continuous operation for as long as possible improves boiler efficiency.

Cranfield University did a study on thermal storage systems and said they can be 15% more efficient than normal rad systems.

There are whole estates full of them, yet Joe plumber doesn't understand a thing about them.

 

[Nixt]

There are whole estates full of them, yet Joe plumber does understand a thing about them.

Does or doesn't?

 

[BigBurner]

There are whole estates full of them, yet Joe plumber does understand a thing about them.

Does or doesn't?

Doesn't. typo. You know they do not

 

[Nixt]

There are whole estates full of them, yet Joe plumber does understand a thing about them.

Does or doesn't?

Doesn't. typo. You know they do not

That might have something to do with the fact that your average 'Joe plumber' would never get a sniff at that type of contract work during installation so is unlikely to see them until breakdown which according to Gledhill lovers is never.

 

[BigBurner]

There are whole estates full of them, yet Joe plumber does understand a thing about them.

Does or doesn't?

Doesn't. typo. You know they do not

That might have something to do with the fact that your average 'Joe plumber' would never get a sniff at that type of contract work during installation so is unlikely to see them until breakdown which according to Gledhill lovers is never.

They are very reliable. There are enough of them about so the odd breakdown is inevitable.

 

[Nixt]

There are whole estates full of them, yet Joe plumber does understand a thing about them.

Does or doesn't?

Doesn't. typo. You know they do not

That might have something to do with the fact that your average 'Joe plumber' would never get a sniff at that type of contract work during installation so is unlikely to see them until breakdown which according to Gledhill lovers is never.

They are very reliable. There are enough of them about so the odd breakdown is inevitable.

Which then makes a nonsense of your assumption that 'Joe plumber' should know all about them.

 

[BigBurner]

There are whole estates full of them, yet Joe plumber does understand a thing about them.

Does or doesn't?

Doesn't. typo. You know they do not

That might have something to do with the fact that your average 'Joe plumber' would never get a sniff at that type of contract work during installation so is unlikely to see them until breakdown which according to Gledhill lovers is never.

They are very reliable. There are enough of them about so the odd breakdown is inevitable.

Which then makes a nonsense of your assumption that 'Joe plumber' should know all about them.

I didn't write that he should. He should at least know the basic operation of thermal storage. There is no excuse as they are a water product not a gas product. I can understand a plumber not knowing all about boilers and boiler controls. There is no excuse for not knowing the basic operation of thermal storage.

 

[Nixt]

I didn't write that he should. He should at least know the basic operation of thermal storage. There is no excuse as they are a water product not a gas product. I can understand a plumber not knowing all about boilers and boiler controls. There is no excuse for not knowing the basic operation of thermal storage.

They don't need any excuse if they don't take people's money to work on them.

 

[BigBurner]

I didn't write that he should. He should at least know the basic operation of thermal storage. There is no excuse as they are a water product not a gas product. I can understand a plumber not knowing all about boilers and boiler controls. There is no excuse for not knowing the basic operation of thermal storage.

They don't need any excuse if they don't take people's money to work on them.

They should know their jobs.