Ooooh, just noticed

[AdamW]

I just happened to be on a webpage that had one of those "On this day" links, I then noticed it was for the 11th of September.

3 years later... what do you all think: Is the world a safer/better place now, the same, or worse?

For me, it is no better or worse, but it is a tiny bit more stressful. In the UK the risk of IRA terrorist attacks had been effectively zero for just a couple of years, then all of a sudden we're told "see what happened in NY? That could happen to London too!" And have been for 3 years now.

 

[big-all]

i think all the time us in the west carry on rapeing the poorer countries
and misussing the local assests for a multinational company to cream of
the proffits depriving the local comunity of most of the wealth there
natural resorces bring
you will carry on with hatred for the west and there capitalistic ways

 

[masona]

The American always start the war and the UK get sucked in with them everytime which I don't agreed. Tony Blair has made this country unsafe to live in now.

Bush & Blair went to war without UN backing which is wrong. They knew Saddam didn't have weapon that could reach us. So why did they do it, I think it was a oil war. I maybe wrong but they only tell you what they want you to know.

I agreed with big-all post, we're now becoming a bully nation of the world, the war doesn't acheive anything.

 

[jasy]

You all have short memories......someone did mention it......3 years ago today.................or was it 50 years ago.............it took us 6 years to rid one evil.............these are cowards who don't show themselves it will take longer but we must keep going

 

[masona]

Saddam is caught but the killing still goes on in Iraq, when will it end ? Bush & Blair said the war has finish but it hasn't has it ??????

 

[pipme]

Anyone noticed ? Part of the manner of governing us. ... always a bogyman always apparent danger ...
I am not sure old Bin Liner is still around... He has not truly surfaced .. The man who would readily court publicity.
I reckon someone would have gone for that massive reward, surely ?

The struggle for power and supremacy is endemic in mankind .. The question is, should the dominant factions really crush their opponents, no quarter given ? Not to do so is surely going against nature ? Perhaps a more dangerous path than trying to just do enough ... it never will be enough, will it ? I mean, look where the first WW lead us, neatly into the second.

P

 

[TexMex]

The only way to stop the terrorists is to remove their justification.

How would we all feel if suddenly our whole country was given to some other race of people with the entire English population banished to Cornwall and Norfolk only. Then to add insult to injury, this other race builds settlements in Cornwall and Norfolk so that they can keep an eye on us. Every so often some of our homes get flattened with tanks (just in case), and our freinds get randomly shot down in the street, while the world super powers call us the terrorists.

Is it any wonder that after almost 60 years of this type of abuse, the Arab world is turning against the supporters of Israel? Until this world sanctioned oppression is stopped, the extremists will have an infinate supply of willing martyrs, to any cause against the West.

Unfortunately the Americans appear to have a very xenophobic view of the all things Arab. So they continue to support all the oppression, murders, and humiliation being suffered Palestinians every day.

Perhaps if we ever get a leader with some back bone, he will look at sorting out the Middle East issue, despite the dissinterest of the Yanks. I personally find it very embarassing how our country is just used by the American administration.

Anyone remember the Falklands. Now how hard would it have been for Ronald Reagen to pop down to see his mate Galtiery and say. "Be a good chap, pull your lads out of the Falklands, or I'll have to send the boys in". Where was our "special relationship" then?

Not that I follow politics mind.

 

[jasy]

i am not on my high horse but i spent 14 years in this mans British Army and served all over the world including the Middle East ( in recent times). There is no right and wrong when it comes to religion, we believe in one thing and they believe in another , there is always 2 sides. but these people are fanatical and the hatred is taught at a young age, that includes N. Ireland and it is that hatred that needs to be rooted out and stopped. It is very easy for us all to sit in our ivory palaces on the internet and blame Blair, Bush and everybody else but it is everyday people like us who have to live it and pick up the pieces. No-one likes to watch it on tv but there are very few of us who are prepared to do anything about it And we are all good at criticising

 

[TexMex]

Jasy
Greatest respect to you for your service to our country, but you have to agree, that political solutions are far more desirable than military offensive action.

Terrorist don't just get into it for kicks. One mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter. There's always some underlying grievance that needs adressing, (even if it does go back generations). The IRA didn't agree a cease fire because they were out gunned. They were pacified by the start of negotiations.

Of course there are extremists, but the very terminology that is used to describe them is unhelpful. We've all heard the term "Islamic Extremists" so often that, now the two words seem to go hand in hand. When was the last time you heard of a "Christian Extremist"?

If the IRA had been constantly refered to as "Catholic Extremist", perhaps there would be as much misguided prejudice towards Catholosism, as is happening now towards the moslem faith.

If only the lessons learned in Ireland could be applied to the Middle East, I think we could start making real headway. Unfortunately, for that to happen, our government would need to start taking a leading role, instead of playing second fiddle to the USA.

I have the greatest respect for anyone willing to serve in the armed forces. It's just a shame that our government doesn't have a fraction of the courage of your average squaddie.

Anyhow, Rant over.

 

[AdamW]

It is good that we have so many viewpoints on this, shows that we are using our privelege of living in a country that allows free-thinking and free-speech.

Tex, a couple of the points you made particularly interest me. I have strong views on the Israel events: I believe in the concept of an Israel, but in my view it is in the wrong place. Now, the main (only?) advocate of Israel's policies is the US. Why didn't they just take one state and say "This state is no longer part of the union, it shall henceforth be known as Israel"?

Unfortunately the life of Palestine has never been an easy one. Before the creation of Israel the Palestinians were the scape goat of the Middle East. They have been bullied since forever by the Arabic nations surrounding them.

The Falklands is the other point: Ronald Reagan publicly declared US support for Britain and imposed economic sanctions against Argentina, yet we were not allowed to use US bases (hence no Tornados). Wasn't the war never actually officially declared? We were so intent on keeping it diplomatic that despite 1000 people being killed, several ships sunk and planes shot down, we never actually said "Now look here, this is a war."

There is no right and wrong when it comes to religion, we believe in one thing and they believe in another

This is another thing I find incredible. Judaism, Christianity and Islam all share a common ancestory. One book with three names, Torah, Old Testament and Quran. The only vital difference between the three is the belief you have in the importance of a certain virgin's son, and a chap called Mo who went into the hills.

 

[AdamW]

One mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter.

I know it is a common saying, but I don't agree with it. A "Freedom Fighter" enacts force against the state. A "terrorist" carries out threats or acts of violence against the public , the establishment and/or the state. Both are done with the same ends in mind, political changes.

However, to put the term "freedom fighter" on someone who has killed civilians (either intentionally or accidentally in the course of their attack) would be to deem that those they killed were not relevent.

Hence why the IRA have always been terrorists. The actions of the Irish Citizen Army in 1916 which may be described as "freedom fighting", as the fighting was pitched against the British army.

The events of 3 years ago hardly resulted in a positive affect to the rights or freedoms of anyone in the Middle East, or even arabic people in the west: there were even cases of arabs being removed from airliners as it made another passenger(s) uneasy!

 

[TexMex]

The shame is, that it is so easy for prejudice to be generated. My mother blew her top at me when I bought my first Toyota MR2. She still regards the Japanese as the scum of the earth, because of the attrocities handed out by some of them during WW2.

If we keep refering to Hamas, and Al-q'aida as "Islamic Extremists" it can only propogate the same sort of prejudice towards all Moslems. Which I fear has already happened. I know several people that consider "Islamic" means terrorist.

No way do I condone Osama and his lot. But while the West are seen to be complicit in the abuse of Arabs, he will have no shortage of volunteers.

Looking at the similarities of the three religions. First there was Judaism, founded by Moses. A fellow that was taken in by a well to do family, well educated and given considerable privelidge. Then he turns around and uses all this to lead a full scale revolt against the very people that had raised him! Typical rebelious teenager eh? Hence the birth of Judaism.

Then along comes Jesus and decides that the he doesn't like the elitist attitudes of Judaism and decides to include other races in the game. He is promptly ostracised and up pops Christianity. (and I thought I had problems with my teenage kids).

Then along comes Mohammed and decides it's all gone woefully wrong, because people have stopped listening. So he reminds the world of the words of all the other prophets, and hey presto Islam enters the fray.

So you have Judaism (if you're not a jew, your can't be in our club).
Christianity. (We take all commers, you can join our club if you want)
Islam (You can join our club, but if you belong to one of the others we accept that too).

As you may have gathered, I am a complete aetheist and believe in a doctrine of Live and Let Live. Personally, I think, if god wanted us to behave, he'd tell us. Why just secretly give one poor s*d the job of telling everyone else in the world and then make it realy difficult for him by going into hiding?

I know it is a common saying, but I don't agree with it. A "Freedom Fighter" enacts force against the state. A "terrorist" carries out threats or acts of violence against the public

So what about Israeli Soldiers shooting innocent civilians? Since they are perpetrating this against the public I suppose they should be branded "Zionistic Extremists"

I think the best chance we had of peace in the middle east was blown when Yitzhak Rabin was assasinated (by Israelis!) and then the newly elected Shimon Peres promptly disshonoured all the agreaments signed by his predecessor.

Our "special relationship" with the USA, was also one of the prime causes of the current troubles. Back in the late 1940s while Palestine was a British Mandate, The Jews were offered one thing by the Brits, and another by the Americans (even though it was none of their business). Rather than upset the Yanks, the British just pulled out and left them all to it. Had they not been undermined by the American administration of the time, a negotiated establishment of Israel would probably have been acheived.

 

[pipme]

The answers are probably a lot simpler than the constant debating leads to.
No doubt the whole thing boils down to power, influence, and man's insatiable desire for that, via wealth, religion or both
We have been there have we not ? If any nation should know, we should.

P

 

[kendor]

I'm sure a lot of people's views on israelies would have changed if they'd seen the documentary on BBC2 a couple of years ago, the Israeli army was filmed in secret at a riot where mainly teenagers and kids were throwing rocks and sticks at them, three young men were taken from the crowd and driven out into the desert where they were roughed up and gun butted one of them was picked up and bent over by a rock his arm twisted around so his elbow was facing up he was butted and kicked a few times and you could hear him pleading for mercy, one of the soldiers then picks up a large rock and while the other two soldiers hold the lad down, proceeds to smash down the rock on this lads elbow against the joint until he breaks it, the lad is screaming all the time, he is left lying there and then the film switches to an interview in a room with this soldier, he is shown the film and then asked if he thought that sort of action is justified whereupon he answers with no emotion shown "of course they deserve it they are just animals" this and the attitude of other jewish people i have spoken with in the past and their attitude towards us "gentiles" as they call us who aren't jewish has turn what sympathies i had for the attrocities they suffered during WW2. You would think that a race that had suffered like that would be against that sort of treatment towards another human being but apparently not.

 

[jasy]

Tex, with reference to your 'Political Solution', thats fine when there is an agenda or goal as with the IRA, they have a political goal and so there is room for negotiation. Al' Queda do NOT have a political goal. there leader issued a 'Fatwa', it is a religious war based around the fact that they hate ALL westerners and our ideals. This is then burned into the education of the children and so spirals out of control...........there is no easy solution.