To say, or not to say, that is the question

[noseall]

If I saw someone working like this I'd be concerned for their well being....blah, blah blah,..... I feel a certain "Duty of care" to speak up personally....blah, blah, blah.....

Of course you do. And the moment someone comes knocking on your door to take the matter further and out of the warmth and sanctity of your house, you will dive behind the sofa and beg your wife to tell them you are not in.
Another brave, anonymous meddling busy-body.

 

[PBC_1966]

Be that as it may, you have a moral duty to report it,

No you don't. So long as it's not endangering anyone else, if you have any moral duty it's to mind your own business and not get that person tied up with a load of nanny-state government bureaucrats. If he is willing to take the risk, what business is it of theirs or of yours?

Perhaps if somebody even looks as though he's merely considering doing something like that you consider it your moral duty to report him for "thought crime" too?

Because unless you think that the people up there are just a bunch of random strangers who simultaneously decided to gratuitously install solar panels on that roof, somebody sent them up there.

And? Unless that somebody sent them up there at gunpoint or some similar duress, they went up there of their own free will.

If it is not dangerous then they will be left to do their job.

Really? With the way that the "health & safety" brigade in the U.K. operates these days that's not really a certainty.

 

[bernardgreen]

Because unless you think that the people up there are just a bunch of random strangers who simultaneously decided to gratuitously install solar panels on that roof, somebody sent them up there.

They may have "sent themselves up there" They may have been the people who called in salesman's mode and persuaded the owner to have solar panels fitted and then came back in workman mode to install them.

They may have been con men who told the owner the roof needed repairs and went on the roof to carry out the unecessary "work". ( not a great loss if they fell off the roof )

 

[SimonH2]

If he is willing to take the risk, what business is it of theirs or of yours?

Presumably all the employees mentioned here all "knew the risks" and their employer had no duty to provide them with reasonably safe working conditions ? Clearly all those fines were wrong because it clearly wasn't the employers' fault that they decided to do something which, in hindsight, turned out to be dangerous.

If it really were as simple as the people doing the job will act sensibly then we wouldn't need H&S rules. I agree they can be applied in stupid ways - but that's not the fault of either the law or the HSE.
History tells us that without some protections in place, employers will take the ****, and employees will take the ****. Mostly taking the attitude you seem to have that "it'll never happen to me". Unfortunately, for many people, it does happen to them.

 

[SimonH2]

They may have "sent themselves up there" They may have been the people who called in salesman's mode and persuaded the owner to have solar panels fitted and then came back in workman mode to install them.

Yes, that is a possibility - but given the number of people on that roof, not likely !
This wasn't a couple of guys, this was a whole gang - at least half a dozen (I didn't count). The chances that they "spontaneously" decided for themselves to do the job and go on the roof is "quite small".
So someone sent them to do the job. And, from the fact that they packed up rather than just deploying the safety gear that they'd stated in advance would be used, suggests that they didn't even have any with them. Ergo, this is a gang that is routinely sent onto roofs without what industry standard practice deems necessary safety equipment.

Yes, I do know that it is also routine to go on roofs without safety gear. It's not black and white - if it had been dry and not windy then I might not have said anything. It had been one guy just looking around, I'd probably not have said anything (because I realise that rigging safety gear isn't without risk, and for a short job in good conditions, that risk could be more than that attached to the job). But this was wet, the roof would be slippery not matter what you put on your feet, and I know from experience how a panel can catch the wind - and it was windy ! One had already been seen falling over.

 

[bernardgreen]

In the early 1970's I worked on marine radars. occasionally working on the scanner at the top of the mast. A few masts had an access platform just below the scanner but most had only two rings around the mast, one to stand on and one to lean back against. I clearly recall feeling safer when on the two rings than when on an access platform. On the rings I knew I had to look out for my own safety, On the access platforms there was a sense of "this is safe, no need to be so careful" There was a great temptation to do time saving but hazardous procedures on the access platform that one would never dream of doing when on the rings.

This sense that Health and Safety will prevent us having accidents seems to have developed to the point that some people honestly believe there is no need to look after their own safety, it is all done for them by H&S regulations.

 

[noseall]

what needs reporting.....is the H&S violations.

The pinnacle of your moralistic crusade.
And you have the face to criticise other peoples' morals. You are abhorrent.

 

[PBC_1966]

Is your neighbor doing something of which Big Brother disapproves?

Report him, citizen, it is your duty!

 

[Newboy]

Last year there, as a result of falling from height (HSE definition) there were:

29 Deaths
2,950 Specified injuries
3,117 '7-day' injuries

Still think this H&S stuff is just a paperwork exercise?

 

[kazuya]

next time you see someone walking down the street using a mobile phone you better call H&S and report them,
because there were 24,033 reported pedestrian casualties on UK roads in 2013 – with the number killed increasing by 3% year on year.

its your moral duty to do so

 

[PBC_1966]

Last year there, as a result of falling from height (HSE definition) there were:

29 Deaths
2,950 Specified injuries
3,117 '7-day' injuries

How many of those were down to an individual taking it upon himself to do something foolish which he knew he shouldn't have tried doing?

 

[SimonH2]

How many of those were down to an individual taking it upon himself to do something foolish which he knew he shouldn't have tried doing?

Activities such as ... walking around on a smooth sloping wet roof, carrying a large panel in strong and gusty wind ?

 

[PBC_1966]

Activities such as ... walking around on a smooth sloping wet roof, carrying a large panel in strong and gusty wind ?

Yes, just like that.

 

[SimonH2]

Well they were back today - and using restraint wires.
I'm guessing one of the engineering companies downstairs must have said something to them, because one of the contractors came across to see them with photos to show they were using wires. Mind you, guys from said engineering company were heard tut-tutting because they reckon the system they were using wasn't suitable for the situation.

Anyway, the takeaway point is that the contractors had told the building owner that a restraint system was required, and they got caught not using one. If it really wasn't needed then they should have said this in their method statement. The fact that they came back with one suggests they didn't think they could justify not using it.

 

[ajstoneservices]

Mind you, guys from said engineering company were heard tut-tutting because they reckon the system they were using wasn't suitable for the situation.

We were doing a solar panel installation in Oundle sometime in 2009 using safety harnesses and fall arresters when a motor pulls up and a young chap gets out and shouts up to us "Those harnesses you are using will kill you within minutes if you fall" Wtf?

I can't remember who he worked for but he had some real nice kit in his car and knew his stuff. He said the kit we were using would cut our blood supply before anyone could help us. Those harnesses were thrown in the van and have not seen the late of day since.

One other thing. I hurt my back while carrying a panel from a barn to a mounting system when it got caught by a gust of wind. So your point about being up on a wet roof with them is a valid one.