Wiring in loft - safe or not?

[StephenCatt]

Wow - thanks guys - I wasn't expecting such a fast response! Good to see a bit of healthy debate too

Coming back on a couple of points then - to be fair to the builder (I'm doing my best to be balanced here, I'm not being intentionally naive...!) it is in an older part of the house and the loft was a bit of a mess before. We've had a two storey extension built but also split an existing bathroom and bedroom into two new rooms. The area in the pictures would have originally contained the old bathroom light (one unit), a bedroom light (one unit again) and another one in the old corridor so some of the wiring would have been legitimately (or not???) borrowed I guess. The area we're looking at now has 7 new spots altogether plus the other bits and bobs. The electrician is NICEIC registered and has issued a certificate ("circuit alteration or addition in a special location, Install one or more new circuits").

I guess my question now would be should a certificate have been issued given the way the work has been done? Obviously it's much easier to argue the point on something not meeting a regulation and being dodgily signed off as opposed to something being bad workmanship. Don't get me wrong, I'm not happy with the work and will be taking it further - it's just easier to do so when you know exactly where you stand! Should the building inspector have looked too?

Thanks so much for the help folks,

Steve

PS Owain - thanks for the tip on the extractors too - I'd been wondering about that too and was just starting to read up on the subject.

 

[JohnW2]

I guess my question now would be should a certificate have been issued given the way the work has been done? Obviously it's much easier to argue the point on something not meeting a regulation and being dodgily signed off as opposed to something being bad workmanship.

There are umpteen violations of specific Wiring Regulations (BS7671) in what you have shown us - most of the electrical points mentioned by OwainDIYer in his early response represent non-compliances with the regulations. If the person who did it has signed a certificate declaring that the work is compliant with BS7671, then that is definitely 'dodgy', not the least because it is not true!

If, as you say, this person is NICEIC registered, I would have thought that NICEIC would be interested in hearing about it (with photos). I guess it's up to you as to whether you do that, or just threaten to do it unless the work is speedily brought up to an acceptable standard.

Kind Regards, John

 

[SimonH2]

One other thing, are there recessed ceiling lights (aka downlights) involved - buried in the insulation ? If so then that is a real and immediate hazard from overheating.

 

[StephenCatt]

Thanks both - again, I really appreciate the help.

Simon - yes, they are downlights, and they do have insulation around them. Something else to think about then.... thank you for the tip.

John - the certificate doesn't mention BS7671, just that the work is compliant with Building Regs 4 & 7. Having just had a quick google I can see we're talking workmanship etc. here so I guess that even if BS7671 isn't explicitly mentioned then failing to comply with it would imply bad workmanship. Do you have any other take on it? Whatever the case I think this gives me more than enough to go on.

Thanks again chaps,

Steve

 

[JohnW2]

John - the certificate doesn't mention BS7671, just that the work is compliant with Building Regs 4 & 7. Having just had a quick google I can see we're talking workmanship etc. here so I guess that even if BS7671 isn't explicitly mentioned then failing to comply with it would imply bad workmanship. Do you have any other take on it? Whatever the case I think this gives me more than enough to go on.

It doesn't sound as if he has given you any sort of standard certificate, since that would indicate that the work had been undertaken in compliance with BS7671. Does the certificate come with any sort of documentation of results of tests undertaken (if any tests were undertaken!)?

Whatever, all domestic electrical work has to comply with part P of the Building Regs (which is law) and the only way in which 99%+ people can demonstrate compliance with that law is by complying with BS7671. Although that is not compulsory as far as the law is concerned, the vast majority of electricians would not be able to demonstrate compliance with Part P in any other way.

Kind Regards, John

 

[SimonH2]

Simon - yes, they are downlights, and they do have insulation around them.

So apart from the electrical safety defects, they've made a fire hazard.

If they were LED then they'd just overheat and fail, but GU10s with incandescent lamps get very hot - if insulated then they get even hotter.

 

[OwainDIYer]

John - the certificate doesn't mention BS7671, just that the work is compliant with Building Regs 4 & 7.

What regs are those then? The English Building Regs have lettered Parts, as far as I know.

 

[GaryGarden]

Approved document 7 covers workmanship.

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/buildingregulations/approveddocuments/workandmaterials/

Havn't a clue what 4 is??????

The work done is covered by parts B, E, F, P it could be argued a few others come into it as well.

 

[Taylortwocities]

What you have received is a Certificate of Compliance, like this

Untitled

• Taylortwocities
• 11 Oct 2008
• 14

This is sent to you by the NICEIC and on behalf of your local authority.
This is done when the registered electrician notifies his body (NICEIC) that he has done the work for you.

The basis of this process is for the body (NICEIC) to have an agreement from the electrician that the work he has done complies with the relevant standards (The Wiring Regulations - BS7671, and others). The electrician is only allowed to be amember if he can demoinstrate a certain level of competence, and he is checked on an annual basis.

Quite clearly, as above, this work does not meet the required standards. The fact that it is in an older part of the property is not relevant. The work he does must be to code, it isn't. I would have him make it good (that means proper terminal boxes, cables clipped, etc. If he doesn't play ball, contact NICEIC and raise a complaint.

 

[Taylortwocities]

This NICEIC document (yes, a handy document from NICEIC!)
https://brcs.niceic.com/about.asp
explains the notification process, what BR Parts 4 and 7 relate to and also the requirements for certification and compliance with Part P, etc.

 

[OwainDIYer]

Approved document 7 covers workmanship.

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/buildingregulations/approveddocuments/workandmaterials/

Havn't a clue what 4 is??????

The work done is covered by parts B, E, F, P it could be argued a few others come into it as well.

Regulation 7 stipulates that building work shall be carried out with adequate and proper materials which:

(i) are appropriate for the circumstances in which they are used,

(ii) are adequately mixed or prepared, and

(iii) are applied, used or fixed so as adequately to perform the functions for which they are designed; and

(iv) in a workmanlike manner.

Next to those photos, that's funny, that is.

 

[ukes]

What a mess!

What sort of idiot uses a lighting terminal as a junction box?.......Hes used it because he had one laying around, and probably cant be arsed to source a suitable terminal box, which cost pennies and can be found easily.

I wouldnt worry too much but it needs corrective action. That is an attempt to save time and to be honest its a shambles, anyone worth their salt would clip the cables and terminate properly. I find it incredible that anyone, let alone a spark would leave that as it is.

Ask him if he knows anyone that can do it properly.

 

[Taylortwocities]

He is NICEIC registered and (by definition) is therefore on the list of Competent Persons.

 

[ukes]

He is NICEIC registered and (by definition) is therefore on the list of Competent Persons.

silly me

 

[JohnW2]

He is NICEIC registered and (by definition) is therefore on the list of Competent Persons.

I knew that their had to be a reason why the proposals for Amd3 of BS7671:2008 seem to have developed a dislike of the word 'competent'....

Untitled

• JohnW2
• 6 Apr 2014
• 2

They presumably have decided that what they want are 'skilled or trained pesrons', rather than 'competent' ones

Kind Regards, John