Help ! Advice please....

[discostewart]

Help ! Advice please....

My builder told me he was dot and dabbing my bathroom a few weeks ago and its done now !

He is a good builder with a good reputation (recommended by our architect/surveyor), so i dont think he would rip us off. but after reading this im worried. I knew nothing abut whether this was a problem in bathrooms (i was actually searching on "DAB BATHROOM RADIO" and found this thread).

DETAILS
The roomis 3.6 x 3.1 metres.
He put a glue type stuff to the wall before the boards went up.
The room is 2.5 metres high where the shower is (cubicle 2 metres high). There is an extractor fan in the light above the shower. One wall of the shower cuiblce is aquaboarded with tiles on it. The other is standard board with tiles on it. All tiles go shower tray to ceiling.

The other half of the room is 3.6 metres high (vaulted). With the boards covering old victorian brickwork that was in a state Again there is an additional vent in this part of the room. In this half there is a freeestanding bath about 8 inches from the wall.

Both vents are serviced by a powerful extractor fan. (thatt comes on with the shower).

We have used dulux bsthroom paint and crown bathroom matt paint to decorate.

Should i be talking to him about this or are we ok ? Im very suprised he would do something inapropriate he seems very knowledgable. And what signs would occur if its incorrect ?

Stewart

 

[jbonding]

aslong as its been skimmed and the tiling is done right i dont see any problems............

 

[Richard C]

You should never use plasterboard (even moisture resistantin IMO) in a shower cubicle or behind a bath unless it’s tanked; personally, I only use tile backer board. If he plastered the board before tiling it will help but if he’s just stuck the tiles directly onto the PB, it’s just asking for trouble unless he’s used an epoxy adhesive; did he at least use a flexible adhesive & grout?

There is a huge misconception about waterproof adhesive/grout. Unless it’s one of the very expensive epoxy based products, it’s only waterproof in the sense that it won’t turn to mush if it gets wet; it’s not impermeable so will still absorb water & any small cracks/imperfections in the grout will make things worse. Once moisture gets into the board behind the tiles, you will get black mould growing (very smelly) & the PB will eventually disintegrate. Why on earth did he only use backer board on one side of the shower?

I've attached a couple of links & there was a picture posted of the board behind tiles someone removed but I can’t find the thread; there are many more similar threads, mostly on the tiling forum.

//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=153224
//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=34238

 

[discostewart]

yes

SHOWER CUBICLE
On one side its plasterboard (dot and dab) then plastered then tiles with sealant then willbe grout,
on the other aquaboard then tiles.
Quart tiles with sealent.

BATH
My bath is freestanding and 7 or 8 inches from the wall.

We have very good ventilation it comes on with the shower and also a moisture detector, big vacumn cleaner looking fan in loft. It has two vents one over shower and one high in the celing of vaulted ceiling part nearer bath.

GROUTING
The tiler says he can put a flexiable grout in but that he has never heard of that in this situation when tiling onto a plastered wall on one side and aquaboard screwed in to the airing cupboard on other.

Shall i tell him to?

He is a nice guy and i trust him to sort it.

 

[Richard C]

SHOWER CUBICLE
On one side its plasterboard (dot and dab) then plastered then tiles with sealant then will be grout,

What sort of sealant? Is the sealant on the board or over the tiles? As I said previously, skimming the PB will help but not a great deal; a search through the tiling forum will throw up any number of disaster scenarios where PB had disintegrated into a mouldy mess behind the tiles because it wasn’t tanked. Has he actually tiled the wall yet? If he hasn't then use this & tile directly over it:
http://www.bal-adhesives.co.uk/products/wp1-coating

on the other aquaboard then tiles.
Quart tiles with sealent.

Again, what sort of sealant?

BATH
My bath is freestanding and 7 or 8 inches from the wall.

If it’s plasterboard, I would still tank the immediate area around the bath.

We have very good ventilation it comes on with the shower and also a moisture detector, big vacumn cleaner looking fan in loft. It has two vents one over shower and one high in the celing of vaulted ceiling part nearer bath.

Sounds like you have good provision to prevent excessive condensation but fans won’t protect wet areas that come into direct contact with water.

GROUTING
The tiler says he can put a flexiable grout in but that he has never heard o that in this situation when tiling onto a plastered wall on one side and aquaboard screwed in to the airing cupboard on other.

Shall i tell him to?

You don’t need flexible adhesive/grout on a plastered block work wall but it should be use on the backer board or any stud/dot & dabbed wall regardless of weather or not it's plastered. Depending on how much flexible you need & the size of the bags/containers you have to buy, it’s often easier to use flexible over the whole area rather than buying 2 different types & not using ½ of it.

These are the only products I will use:
http://www.bal-adhesives.co.uk/products

Personally I've never tried it but using this or a similar epoxy based grout may help if he’s already laid the tiles but it’s really supposed to be used in conjunction with epoxy adhesive;
http://www.bal-adhesives.co.uk/products/easypoxy

 

[discostewart]

I presume we r not worrying about the aquaboard and tiles, just the platerboard wall with plater skim and tiles ?

The sealant we have goes over the tiles before grouting:
http://www.toppstiles.co.uk/tprod128/section/Colour-Intensifier-500ML.html
Yo put a coat or two on after grouting aswell.

I spoke to the tile company and they suggested either easypoxy (which they say is a pig to install and expensive) or micro-flex which is virtually as good but not poxy based.

I really need to try and solve this wihtout ripping the tiles off the walls which will ruin the walls and tiles anyway (which at the end of the day would be the same result if there was a leak).

p.s. these are very thick quartz tiles and will be packed with grout

Stew

 

[Richard C]

I presume we r not worrying about the aquaboard and tiles, just the platerboard wall with plater skim and tiles ?

Yes.

The sealant we have goes over the tiles before grouting:
http://www.toppstiles.co.uk/tprod128/section/Colour-Intensifier-500ML.html
Yo put a coat or two on after grouting as well.

It’s primarily a colour enhancer but does appear to have water resistant properties; weather or not it will provide a lasting seal against moisture permeation through the grout, I personally have no experience.

I spoke to the tile company and they suggested either easypoxy (which they say is a pig to install and expensive) or micro-flex which is virtually as good but not poxy based.

See comments below.

I really need to try and solve this wihtout ripping the tiles off the walls which will ruin the walls and tiles anyway (which at the end of the day would be the same result if there was a leak).
p.s. these are very thick quartz tiles and will be packed with grout

I assume your builder/tiller was taking the lead & they should really have advised you better but it’s not uncommon, especially if it’s been done to a price; but now they’ve gone this far, I agree it would be pointless removing tiles from the wall! I would try & use a grout that would at least go some way to counteract the problem & would use Epoxy; I agree, it’s expensive but you really only get what you pay for with these products &, IMO, the "pig to apply" is a bit of s cop out. Micro-flex is good stuff & I use it all the time; it’s waterproof but is still permeable & so will still absorb moisture which you really need to avoid with that carp PB behind. See product data sheet here: http://www.bal-adhesives.co.uk/products/microflex

My thinking would be; tiles impermeable, grout impermeable, sealer sort of impermeable? = a much better chance of it going the distance! This sort of work should last at least 10 years so under these circumstances I would try & negotiate a 3 year warranty rather than a totally pointless 12 months. It wouldn’t be out of order as even MDF will probably last that long & you’re going to be more concerned with medium to long term. Hope all this is helping rather than giving you your “19th nervous”

 

[discostewart]

definately helping,

iit was actually the tile shop that said epoxy is a pig to apply, and you'd think they would try and sell it to me as its more expensive.

He said "it sticks to everything and u have to sell it with stuff to remove it from tiles/walls". It would be good if we could find someone thats used it before to see how hard it really is to use? My tiler will apply it if i ask but want to know if its doable.

 

[discostewart]

oh, p.s.

Richard, one idea,


As we havent grouted and i have plenty of tiles left i could take off the bottom row or two. Could i do anything behind these tiles to strengthen the waterproofing? As this is where most the splashback would come. Is there something i could paint on or fix there, that
a) tiles can still stick to
b) wont buffer the wall out so the tiles stay in line

And would i only do this on the non aquaboard side ? (the aquaboard actually acts as the side of the new airing cupboard now, i remember it being pretty flush but might be worth checking and filling if not?)

SEALANT
I wouldf happily go buy a better sealent if we have any suspcion that the topps tiles FILA tuff is ****e

I read on another forum that Aqua Mix sealers choice gold lasts 15 years (its water based). http://www.stonesealingstore.co.uk/aqua-mix-sealers-choice-gold.html

SHOWER TRAY
I have a jt40 tray on thick ply screwed into the existing floorboards. (no its not tanked but lets not start on that lol). All my floor has been covered with thick ply before tiling was done to even out floor.

 

[Richard C]

oh, p.s.
As we havent grouted and i have plenty of tiles left i could take off the bottom row or two. Could i do anything behind these tiles to strengthen the waterproofing? As this is where most the splashback would come. Is there something i could paint on or fix there, that
a) tiles can still stick to
b) wont buffer the wall out so the tiles stay in line

Tanking is what should have been done but I’d now leave it & cope with it as it is. Taking off & partially refitting tiles will rarely look the same no matter how much care is taken.

oh, p.s.
And would i only do this on the non aquaboard side ? (the aquaboard actually acts as the side of the new airing cupboard now, i remember it being pretty flush but might be worth checking and filling if not?)

Don’t worry about the aquaboard; but I’m not sure about what you mean by it being pretty flush & checking & filling!

oh, p.s.
SEALANT
I wouldf happily go buy a better sealent if we have any suspcion that the topps tiles FILA tuff is s***te
I read on another forum that Aqua Mix sealers choice gold lasts 15 years (its water based). http://www.stonesealingstore.co.uk/aqua-mix-sealers-choice-gold.html[/QUOTE]
I have no experience with either so can’t advise if one s better or worse than the other.

oh, p.s.
SHOWER TRAY
I have a jt40 tray on thick ply screwed into the existing floorboards. (no its not tanked but lets not start on that lol). All my floor has been covered with thick ply before tiling was done to even out floor.

You don’t need to tank under the tray but I hope that was WBP ply (how thick?) under the floor tiles & well fixed + a decent, trade flexible adhesive & grout was used.

Stone resin trays are basically a high density concrete product with a thin layer of resin gel coat on the top. This means they are heavy, strong & ridged but not very flexible. Check the manufacturers instructions but the recommended way of fixing is usually on a weak mix concrete base to ensure even & adequate support over whole tray. Some use a bed of silicone but due to the fact they don’t flex very well, I wouldn’t!

 

[discostewart]

shower tray is indeed fitted down with concrete weak mix onto a very thick ply (i think it was atleast 12mil. i was just thinking whether it was worth trying to atleast water seal the bottom row of tiles from behind.

 

[Richard C]

shower tray is indeed fitted down with concrete weak mix onto a very thick ply (i think it was atleast 12mil. i was just thinking whether it was worth trying to atleast water seal the bottom row of tiles from behind.

I would leave it now as you unlikely to get the tiles looking the same. Another thing you should do is to run a bead of sanitary silicone sealer down the vertical corners where the walls meet rather than just rely on the grout. Cracks are more likely to form here due to differential movement between the adjoining walls, especially of one’s a stud & the other is block. It goes without saying to silicone seal between the shower tray & bottom row of tiles. I always leave a 2-3mm gap between the two & seal in 2 stages; first to fill the gap & the second to provide a nice radius silicone bead.

For the floor, 12mm ply isn’t that thick but should be sufficient for over boarding if the joists & original floorboards were securely fixed & in good condition. As previously, you should use either exterior grade, WBP (water & boil proof) ply or marine ply but that’s more expensive & a bit overkill. It should be screw fixed every 200mm & any joint must either be along a joist or supported with noggins. Anything other than very slight flexing in the floor will cause the floor tiles to crack & high quality adhesive http://www.bal-adhesives.co.uk/products/rapidset-flexible & grout http://www.bal-adhesives.co.uk/products/superflex-wide-joint is essential if it’s going to last.

 

[discostewart]

The tiles are quartz (oyster from topps tiles) they are up to 13mm thick and all different shapes, so they dont look the same anyway lol. you can take them in and out and it doesnt seem to matter from an asthetic look.

One thing in our favour is that thickness allows quite a lot of silicon to be packed in. oyster quartz is less permeable than slate aswell but still not great lol.

SILICON
will silicon down the vertical line - just on the grout line or the actual corner of shower?

ANOTHER OPTION
a new option other than the easypoxy has been given to me by a helpline, they said u can use a good grout and then on top of that use aqua max colouring for grout, this stuff colours grout but also water proofs the grout. and its easier than easypoxy to get right. add that to aqua max sealant gold ( 3 coats said to last 15 years) and it should be good i hope.

so..

it appears the option is remove tiles and put in aquaboard or tank. or use easypoxy or microflex with colour grout application. and in both cases use sealant.

part of me wants to atleast seal the shower tray with tape on the bottom row but it could ruin the plastering. (see below)


FINAL PROBLEMS
one other problem is the helpline said that a week wasnt long enough to let the new skimmed plaster dry on the wall b4 tiling. when it rains it pours lol. they told me to leave grouting for another week.


also i dont think he taped the line between the shower tray and aquaboard, again could take bottom row of oir just overpack the grout there.

FLOOR
we did the best we could bu t there r somany pipes in that bathroom it was a case of screwing down where we could to floor and joists

MICROFLEX
how easy is mirco-flex grout, is it as easy to fit as normal trade grout?


i have to thank you piublically for putting so much time into this to help me out.

 

[Richard C]

SILICON
will silicon down the vertical line - just on the grout line or the actual corner of shower?

Grout well into the corner & then rake the grout back to leave sufficient space for a decent silicone bead.

ANOTHER OPTION
a new option other than the easypoxy has been given to me by a helpline, they said u can use a good grout and then on top of that use aqua max colouring for grout, this stuff colours grout but also water proofs the grout. and its easier than easypoxy to get right. add that to aqua max sealant gold ( 3 coats said to last 15 years) and it should be good i hope.
so..
it appears the option is remove tiles and put in aquaboard or tank. or use easypoxy or microflex with colour grout application. and in both cases use sealant.

I think you are starting chase your own tail by giving yourself too many options. You seem to be increasingly unhappy about leaving the tiles on the PB wall & if that’s the case, you may as well strip them completely (from the PB bit) & start again; if your feeling unhappy about it, you may get to a point where you regret not doing it! If a cement powder adhesive has been used (& it should have been with heavy tiles), they will (should!) be a pig to remove & it’s most likely the plaster & even the plasterboard will suffer when you take the tiles down so if you decide to strip, replace it rather than tank what’s left but this time use a backer board & tile directly onto that.

Using Microflex & applying a sealer over the lot may be successful but I’ve never tried it. These products are designed to be absorbed, seal/proof porous surfaces but you’re still left with the basic problem of a substrate that won’t stand up well to moisture. The sealer won’t stop moisture being sucked into any cracks that may develop in the grout in the future or indeed may exist from the start & the product warranty will specifically exclude this. In the long term, who knows, in the words of a very famous actor “do ya feel lucky”; at the end of the day you’re going to have to live with the decision so it’s your call.

also i dont think he taped the line between the shower tray and aquaboard, again could take bottom row of or just overpack the grout there; part of me wants to at least seal the shower tray with tape on the bottom row but it could ruin the plastering. (see below)

I’m not sure what you mean by “taped the line between the shower tray and aquaboard” & “tape the bottom row” tiles are normally spaced off the tray & the joint between the 2 packed with silicone & finished with a neat bead; as described previously. Dont use grout, however much you pack in there won’t seal against the tray, it will always crack & act as a siphon drawing water into the joint.

FINAL PROBLEMS
one other problem is the helpline said that a week wasnt long enough to let the new skimmed plaster dry on the wall b4 tiling. when it rains it pours lol. they told me to leave grouting for another week.

Skim coat dries out pretty quick & a week should see it pretty well free of moisture but it does rather depend on room temperature & ventilation; if tiling over skim, I normally leave it 12-14 days.

MICROFLEX
how easy is mirco-flex grout, is it as easy to fit as normal trade grout?

Very easy to use.

 

[discostewart]

what i mean about the shower tray is someone told me that before you put the tiles down u seal any small gap between the shoer tray and wall with waterproof tape.

As for silicone, i always thought u grouted the very bottom vertical space between the tiles and the tray and then siliconed over that ? i.e. u see a bead of silicone around the botom of the tray when you look down.