Part P and building control

[b33k34]

Sorry - lot of preamble. Can i self install mains fire alarms without Part P is the basic question.

We had a basic loft extension done (no dormer, room created in existing loft space.). Local building control are being a complete nightmare - each time they visit they add something new to the list of things they want done before they will sign off on it and it's now stretched on for a couple of years (in part from our own slackness). The major work, including electrics, was done by a builder.

Anyway, on the first visit after completion the BCO said we could either install fire doors to all rooms or fit mains, interconnected, smoke alarms. I chose the latter, and installed them myself by spuring off the light circuit in each room (interconnection via RF).

On his next visit he observed and tested these and seemed happy but decided we needed to add fireproof panelling to the other attic door, cellar door and replace the glass in the kitchen door. We finally got around to doing all this and he's now asking for an electrical cert for the fire alarm install (never mentioned before).

Do I now need to pay a sparks to come and inspect? I don't remember the BCO asking for a cert on the lights/power in the new room (which was done by the builder) so wouldn't be surprised if he subsequently asks for that as well.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Can i self install mains fire alarms without Part P is the basic question.

Do you mean without complying with Part P? No, of course you may not.

Local building control are being a complete nightmare - each time they visit they add something new to the list of things they want done before they will sign off on it

You have absolutely no-one to blame but yourself for that.

he's now asking for an electrical cert for the fire alarm install (never mentioned before).

As Part P applied to that work he will want proof that it complied, so asking for a certificate is perfectly reasonable.

Do I now need to pay a sparks to come and inspect?

Has he said what sort of certificate he wants?

If he's after an EIC/MWC to prove that a competent person did the work then you are in trouble.

I don't remember the BCO asking for a cert on the lights/power in the new room (which was done by the builder) so wouldn't be surprised if he subsequently asks for that as well.

Nor I, as Part P applies to those as well.

What is your LABC's policy on electrical work? When you embarked on this loft conversion without telling them how you were going to be doing things did you by default agree to use an electrician?

 

[ajrobb]

Confusing! Presumably the builder's electrician was a member of a competent persons scheme and their scheme notified the LABC when the new lighting circuit was installed. I think you can extend that 'existing' circuit without notifying LABC but alarms are something else. The lighting circuit must be 'regularly used' to be suitable and there is something about isolating the alarms separate from the lights. Also the alarms have to be correctly sighted.

I suspect you'll have to get an electrician in to sort it out to their satisfaction so they can sign it off and get their competent person's scheme to notify the LABC. The alternative might be to notify the LABC of the new work (that they have insisted on) and pay their fees. Then you might have to start the work again so they can inspect it...

Good luck!

 

[b33k34]

Woaah. First post on here - I didn't expect to get instantly flamed for what I thought were reasonable questions. Perhaps I've not explained everything satisfactorily.

We notified Building Control before any work started, paid the fee based on the overall project value , and they inspected the build as it progressed (with the BCO telling us at which stages he needed to see things and sometimes making the builder uncover some work to check it - he may well have seen enough of the electrics to be satisfied through that.

We were discussing what was needed to comply the whole house from the start but, after the builder had completed his work and been paid, the BCO has added further requirements on each visit.

Rereading my first post it's slightly incorrect - we knew that either alarms or fire doors were required from very early on but I fitted them after the main work was complete. The alarms were sited in accordance with the manufacturers instructions and the locations through the house in accordance with the BCO's requirements (every room and every landing). He OK'd positioning and that they were working correctly. He then asked us make further additions (fireproofing attic, cellar and kitchen doors) that had not been mentioned before and when he came to inspect those asked for a certificate for the fire alarms. It was never going to be possible to run a separate circuit for the alarms (this is a victorian house and the rest is fully decorated) and I'm sure I OK'd with him that the alarms would be run from the lighting circuit.

http://www.partp.co.uk/partp.aspx

My reading is that if it's a standalone bit of electrical work this is an alternative to calling in Building Control but if BC are already on site and paid for then it shouldn't be a problem

 

[RossR]

There are a couple of different types of certificate you could be being asked for. One is to say the smoke alarms have been installed and tested in accordance with BS5839. I don't know much about those. The other is an Electrical Installation Certificate (EIC) which states it has been designed, installed, inspected and tested to BS7671.

It varies between councils but most make an additional charge (above the notification fee you've paid) if any notifiable electrical work is done by someone who isn't competent to complete an EIC. Who they class as competent to complete an EIC varies again, but I'd be surprised if they included someone without any electrical qualifications. In these circumstances they also usually require an inspection visit after all cables are installed but before any are covered up. Therefore, they want to be told before the work starts if any notifiable electrical work will be carried out by someone not competent to complete an EIC.

While some posts might seem blunt, they are generally accurate.

When you made your submission to building control you will have agreed to a particular means of complying with part p (either explicitly or by default). Chances are you agreed to use a "competent person" who can issue an EIC and self certify that the work complies with all applicable building regulations. You've now deviated from that with the installation of the smoke alarms.

The link you posted to is about one of the schemes that professional electricians can join so that they can self certify. It isn't likely to be worth while you trying to join yourself (it'd cost about £1000, easily).

My recommendation would be employ an electrician who is a member of a self certification scheme (Elecsa, NAPIT or NICEIC) to re-install the smoke alarms and provide all of the necessary certificates.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Woaah. First post on here - I didn't expect to get instantly flamed for what I thought were reasonable questions.

Hardly "flamed" - you complained "Local building control are being a complete nightmare - each time they visit they add something new to the list of things they want done before they will sign off on it". That's what happens when you go down the Building Notice route rather than making a full plans submission, and it's why nobody should ever do that.

he may well have seen enough of the electrics to be satisfied through that.

Or the electrician was registered or known by him to be competent.

It was never going to be possible to run a separate circuit for the alarms (this is a victorian house and the rest is fully decorated)

If there really was a requirement for a new circuit then they wouldn't have given two hoots about the redecoration required.

and I'm sure I OK'd with him that the alarms would be run from the lighting circuit.

Did you make it clear that you'd be spurring off the lighting cable in multiple places? Might he have thought that you were going to run a new cable from the lighting MCB?

In any event, his concern seems to be more about who did the work than how it was done.

My reading is that if it's a standalone bit of electrical work this is an alternative to calling in Building Control but if BC are already on site and paid for then it shouldn't be a problem

That depends on your particular council's attitude to electrical work done by non-registered electricians and/or unqualified people. If they decide that their standard approach is that it will be done by a registered person and you did not tell them otherwise then their fee will not cover any extra inspection or testing required because you DIY'ed.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

My understanding is that mains fed fire alarms, should be on a separate circuit, unless standby power is available. Then a lighting circuit can be used.
But RCD protection is not recommended on fire alarm circuits either, unless again this is a separate circuit or the operation of the RCD is independent to any other.
I think you could be in a bit of a pickle!
I assume the fire alarm system was not part of the original application?

 

[RossR]

I assume the fire alarm system was not part of the original application?

The original submission to building control was for a loft conversion. Assuming for the moment that it was a "Full Plans" submission, for the plans to be approved by building control they would want to see smoke positions included. That's an aside though. When the OP applied for building regs approval it included some electrical work. If he agreed it would all be done by a "competent person" and he's now done some of it himself, then he is not doing what he said he would do. The simplest way out of this pickle is to get a "competent person" in to redo the work.

 

[cumbriahandyman]

Woaah. First post on here - I didn't expect to get instantly flamed

You didn't get flamed, you just met BAS.

 

[b33k34]

My understanding is that mains fed fire alarms, should be on a separate circuit, unless standby power is available. Then a lighting circuit can be used.
But RCD protection is not recommended on fire alarm circuits either, unless again this is a separate circuit or the operation of the RCD is independent to any other.
I think you could be in a bit of a pickle!
I assume the fire alarm system was not part of the original application?

I fitted these alarms -
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/TLSD161.html
which have a battery back up so I believe these are OK run from lighting circuit.

We discussed the need for fire protection with the building control officer. He told us we needed to either fit common area fire alarms and replace all of the original doors with fire doors OR fit a fire alarm to every room. We opted for the latter.

The extent of the original application is here -
http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/Services/...gControl/ApplicationForBuildingNotice0505.htm

It doesn't specifically mention electrical work but it's at a far higher level than that - "conversion of loft and associated works" would probably be about as much detail as would be added.

 

[RossR]

Additional Charge where Part P electrical work is carried out by person or company not registered on a Competent Persons scheme: £292.00

Charges are shown excluding VAT

That comes to £350.40. I'm guessing you didn't pay this amount following the first inspection? You therefore implied that no Part P electrical work would be carried out by a person or company not registered on a Competent Persons scheme.

You could go the regularisation route - but I think that effectively doubles the charge to £700.80. They could also insist on you laying open any cable routes, at your expense.

You could try to persuade someone to sign the work of as there own, but that's not a legitimate thing for them to do.

Alternatively you could employ a person or company registered on a Competent Persons scheme to redo the work.

 

[b33k34]

So, going back to the basics, is any of this work actually notifiable under part p?

http://www.voltimum.co.uk/news/5395/cm/part-p---handy-checklist-of-notifiable-work-from-napit.html

seems to indicate that extensions and modifications to circuits are not.

Assuming that I'm going to need something I thought an electrician could examine and sign off on work done by someone else. Can anyone recommend a 'tame' (in the sense of will work with me on this rather than sucking teeth) electrician in South London who can help me get this through?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

So, going back to the basics, is any of this work actually notifiable under part p?

http://www.voltimum.co.uk/news/5395/cm/part-p---handy-checklist-of-notifiable-work-from-napit.html

seems to indicate that extensions and modifications to circuits are not.

Don't look at unofficial website info.

If you read Schedule 4 you'll see that smoke alarms are not in the list of notifiable work, and are therefore notifiable.

But that is irrelevant, really. Part P applies to any work whatsoever on fixed electrical cables or fixed electrical equipment located on the consumer’s side of the electricity supply meter which operate at low or extra-low voltage and are—
(a) in or attached to a dwelling;
(b) in the common parts of a building serving one or more dwellings, but excluding power supplies to lifts;
(c) in a building that receives its electricity from a source located within or shared with a dwelling; or
(d) in a garden or in or on land associated with a building where the electricity is from a source located within or shared with a dwelling,

not just notifiable work. Part P is not about notification it is about doing the work safely, and is always a requirement.

So as in your case it's part of a project which requires Building Regulations approval they will want proof that the electrical work complies with P1, whether it would have been notifiable on its own or not.

Assuming that I'm going to need something I thought an electrician could examine and sign off on work done by someone else.

"Sign off" as in issue an EIC/MWC to say that he did the work, and/or self-certify to LABC that it complied with the Building Regulations?

ABSOLUTEY NOT.

But...

Has (the BCO) said what sort of certificate he wants?

Until you ask your BCO just what he wants you to provide you aren't going to make any progress at all.

Can anyone recommend a 'tame' (in the sense of will work with me on this rather than sucking teeth) electrician in South London who can help me get this through?

Any electrician will be prepared to carry out a Periodic Inspection on your installation.

If what you're asking is for a recommendation for an electrician prepared to lie and break the law, then ABSOLUTEY NOT.

 

[RossR]

The authoritative document on what is notifiable is The Building Regulations. However, that has non-electrical stuff mixed in with it. An easier to read and nearly as authoritative document is Approved document P.

Everything is notifiable by default, unless it falls under one of the exemptions.

There is an exemption for work which—

(a)is not in a kitchen, or a special location;

(b)does not involve work on a special installation; and

(c)consists of—

(i)adding light fittings and switches to an existing circuit, or

(ii)adding socket outlets and fused spurs to an existing ring or radial circuit.

That doesn't cover smoke alarms though and I can't see one that does.

 

[RossR]

Assuming that I'm going to need something I thought an electrician could examine and sign off on work done by someone else.

The only way that can legally be done is if the LABC employ someone of their choosing to inspect and test the work. They don't do it for free though, and that is what the additional fee of £350 is for. As you have neglected to follow the correct procedure and arrange this before the work started, they will charge you twice over.

Really your best bet is to employ a registered spark to redo the work. That's my advice - take it or leave it.