Can you get a system any more wrong, and I still hate combis

install a auto bypass :idea:
Which does what to the return temp ?

In case you miss the significance of that, what is the max return temp for a condensing boiler to condense ? What would the design flow temperature have been on a system designed somewhat before condensing boilers were more than some expensive gimmick (if even on the market - dunno when they because available) ? What happens to the heating if you turn the flow temp down significantly below the design temp ?

With the non-condensing boiler originally fitted, having a bypass would not have been an issue. Fitting on to a condensing boiler simply raises the return flow temperature above the limit for condensing operation. I had thought about it ...

Dr. Drivel... Water systems.... George Bambrige will answer all of these...... and tell you to Install a Thermal Store. I think you and he would get on very well. ;)

Mr. W.
 
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what will be the optimum flow temp from the boiler to get your new thermal store working most effectively?
 
Simon, don't be surprised by the attitude of some of the forum regulars, it's nothing unusual although almost always totally unnecessary. Although some of what you've said is wrong, I don't see how or why it should have offended anybody.

So, what does the advice say about balancing ? Well one step is turning down the pump to set the flow in the "slowest" rad in the system. But this is a crappy combi - so you can't do that without affecting the DHW as well.

Sounds to be like you have something against combi boilers, although they work just fine when installed properly and sized according to the DHW and, to a lesser extent, CH demands. The pump may automatically modulate the flow rate, or there may be some adjustment possible. For example, you can select from two flow rates on some Viessman boilers through the front panel controls as detailed in the manual.

But here's the special features of this system. It's 22mm from the boiler up into the upstairs floor, and it arrives at the rads as 10mm.

Nothing wrong with that, similar systems are still very common on new builds, and work just fine if the pipework is kept clean.

Clearly the small front room upstairs is fed from two pipes which are touching and not lagged - the flow temp is a full 15˚ less than some other rads!

Perhaps the radiator isn't receiving sufficient flow? The two pipes touching probably wouldn't result in such a large reduction in flow temperature, and the pipework run would have to be quite long for such a drop to have occurred due to lack of pipe insulation.

The living room downstairs has pipes dropped from upstairs - buried direct in the plaster down the wall. Lockshield fully open and it's still giving 9˚ drop, while the back bedroom is barely acceptable for noise at only 5˚. And the surface of the plaster is above 50˚ where the pipes are buried.

Again, nothing wrong with pipework below plastic, and far neater than having it on the surface. However, it's best put inside some form of containment such as conduit if buried in a solid wall, or insulated in some way to prevent heat loss into the wall if it's external.

I guess I'll just have to save up and get a thermal store fitted like I've done in the flat - fully TRV'd system (fully modulating pump), and above all no combi :) Needless to say, the house if built to maximise difficulty of altering anything like this :evil:

Your money might be better spent in getting a decent heating engineer to investigate the problems with the existing system. There probably isn't all that much wrong with it, and if the boiler is in reasonable condition then it wouldn't be the end of the world if you had the system repiped in 15mm. Not that 10mm shouldn't work.
 
install a decent quality combi (atag or viessmann for example) with a modulating pump instead of complaining that a cheap combi wont do what you want it to, every boiler is a compromise of some kind.
Yup, plenty of compromise. The later version, but not this one, does have a modulating pump :rolleyes: it won't be retrofittable as I think it relies on the electronics the later one also has.
If you had a problem with BG install, why have you not called them back, instead of trying to balance the system, obviously not knowing what you are doing, from what you have written.! :eek:

I'm not having a go, but your making a lot of assumptions, before corrections are made-professionally.
ring bg and tell them your not happy guess what they will come out as their like that expensive but they realy do care about custmer care
Yes I have a problem with a BG install - it's a mess in several ways. But it was done several years ago by the previous owner so BG aren't going to come back to it FOC.

I agree that changing the system is the best option, but for now I have to make the best of what's there. I have in mind what I am going to do, but there's a few "need to do x before y, and y before z" things to sort out first.
Dr. Drivel... Water systems.... George Bambrige will answer all of these...... and tell you to Install a Thermal Store. I think you and he would get on very well. ;)
Well there is one thing we do agree on - yes I do like a thermal store (not just for the storage, it also makes a great neutral point to decouple boiler supply characteristics from load requirement, and it removes the total reliance on the combi boiler for everything), even if most people still haven't cottoned on to them yet. They aren't black magic ;) No I don't agree with him on most other things !
what will be the optimum flow temp from the boiler to get your new thermal store working most effectively?
I haven't designed it yet, BUT the return temp will be well below that required for the boiler to be condensing. In the flat (which has an off the shelf Gledhill) I run it with a boiler flow of around 70&#730; - I actually have a tempering (mixing) valve in the boiler return to ensure an adequate temperature as that boiler is still a non-condensing one - without it, the boiler return could be 40&#730; or lower. The boiler will get replaced at some point, but the layout of the building is going to make flue siting/routing rather interesting - the current flue location is <cough> marginal for meeting the rules for a non-condensing boiler and certainly isn't acceptable for any replacement.
 
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it was done sevral years ago then it may not bg fault it could been tampered with along time ago
 
Simon, don't be surprised by the attitude of some of the forum regulars, it's nothing unusual although almost always totally unnecessary. Although some of what you've said is wrong, I don't see how or why it should have offended anybody.
I've been on enough forums for long enough to know that. I do try to avoid being rude to people though.

As to having got things wrong, I would be genuinely interested in specifics (if expressed constructively) - that is the route to improved knowledge.
So, what does the advice say about balancing ? Well one step is turning down the pump to set the flow in the "slowest" rad in the system. But this is a crappy combi - so you can't do that without affecting the DHW as well.
Sounds to be like you have something against combi boilers, although they work just fine when installed properly and sized according to the DHW and, to a lesser extent, CH demands. The pump may automatically modulate the flow rate, or there may be some adjustment possible. For example, you can select from two flow rates on some Viessman boilers through the front panel controls as detailed in the manual.
Newer ones are getting better - but you cannot get away from the fundamental problems they have. Unless they fire up (wastefully, as this BG one has the option of doing) periodically then there's a delay getting hot water. There is no way to size a combi correctly for both decent DHW capacity (needs big boiler) and efficient heating (needs smaller boiler, in general and they are improving with greater modulating ranges). And the biggy, it's a pain when they break down and leave you with no heating or hot water. it's an even greater pain when they do it during the coldest spell for a while, and it takes several visits (and waits for spares) before it's fixed. With a hot water cylinder you have an immersion heater for the DHW, and fan heaters/gas fire can keep the rooms warm (or not too cold). A thermal store or heat bank can keep the hot water AND heating going on electric (though capacity will be restricted).
Every house I've lived in, for my whole life, has had a hot water cylinder (as it happens, all the traditional open vented type) - being used to that, I personally don't find the multiple compromises of a combi acceptable.
So yes, you may just get the impression I have something against combi boilers ;) I definitely have something against that significant proportion of people who treat combis as the best thing since sliced bread and refuse to accept that anyone could have anything against them.
But here's the special features of this system. It's 22mm from the boiler up into the upstairs floor, and it arrives at the rads as 10mm.
Nothing wrong with that, similar systems are still very common on new builds, and work just fine if the pipework is kept clean.
Agreed, nothing wrong with that, sorry if I gave that impression. It's the next bit ...
Clearly the small front room upstairs is fed from two pipes which are touching and not lagged - the flow temp is a full 15&#730; less than some other rads!
Perhaps the radiator isn't receiving sufficient flow? The two pipes touching probably wouldn't result in such a large reduction in flow temperature, and the pipework run would have to be quite long for such a drop to have occurred due to lack of pipe insulation.
Based on heat output and temperature drop, I reckon there's adequate flow. I suspect that the two pipes are clipped together - so the flow and return are exchanging heat - the cooler return cools the flow, dropping the rad temp, and of course by the time the return gets back to the main pipe it's been reheated in the process of cooling the flow.
The two small rads in the downstairs dining area show the same symptoms - the pipes for those are visible behind the kitchen cabinets, and yes they've been run together, touching (even clipped together at one point), with no lagging. The rads get uniformly warm (and again the heat output and temperature drop indicate sufficient flow) - but the flow temp is 20&#730; lower than what comes out of the boiler even after a couple of hours.
The living room downstairs has pipes dropped from upstairs - buried direct in the plaster down the wall. Lockshield fully open and it's still giving 9&#730; drop, while the back bedroom is barely acceptable for noise at only 5&#730;. And the surface of the plaster is above 50&#730; where the pipes are buried.
Again, nothing wrong with pipework below plastic, and far neater than having it on the surface. However, it's best put inside some form of containment such as conduit if buried in a solid wall, or insulated in some way to prevent heat loss into the wall if it's external.
I assume you meant to write "below plaster", it's the sort of thing I do, think one word, write another :rolleyes: Yeah, it's not the end of the world.
I guess I'll just have to save up and get a thermal store fitted like I've done in the flat - fully TRV'd system (fully modulating pump), and above all no combi :) Needless to say, the house if built to maximise difficulty of altering anything like this :evil:
Your money might be better spent in getting a decent heating engineer to investigate the problems with the existing system. There probably isn't all that much wrong with it, and if the boiler is in reasonable condition then it wouldn't be the end of the world if you had the system repiped in 15mm. Not that 10mm shouldn't work.
I think some fairly simple work would make a big difference - but that means getting at the pipework. Fitted carpets, and large sheets of chipboard flooring make access difficult without significant (more than I can afford time wise at the moment) work to reinstate. it still wouldn't get round the problem that this boiler isn't really suitable for the application - at least if you want it to perform as a condensing boiler is supposed to. Hydraulically, the easiest option would be a bypass (as onlyfitidealboilers suggested) - but that does nothing for efficiency.

Well I have a list of things I want/need to do. Sorting this out properly is on it - as time and money permits.
 
it was done sevral years ago then it may not bg fault it could been tampered with along time ago
Good point, but I'm fairly confident that the original plumbing is as it was done by the developer, and the boiler related stuff is as BG left it. There are some additions (rads in the garage and added on porch), but the plumbing for that is easily distinguishable (mostly neater for one thing !).
 
Fitted carpets, and large sheets of chipboard flooring make access difficult without significant (more than I can afford time wise at the moment) work to reinstate.
One of the places I'd need to get at would be under the bathroom - glued down 'lino' and fitted shower etc.
 
. I suspect that the two pipes are clipped together - so the flow and return are exchanging heat - the cooler return cools the flow, dropping the rad temp, and of course by the time the return gets back to the main pipe it's been reheated in the process of cooling the flow.
.

Just think how fast the water is moving in those pipes , this just would'nt be the case in the real world. ;)

Don't know why some members on here are being abusive towards you?.........
 
As to having got things wrong, I would be genuinely interested in specifics (if expressed constructively) - that is the route to improved knowledge.


Newer ones are getting better - but you cannot get away from the fundamental problems they have. Unless they fire up (wastefully, as this BG one has the option of doing) periodically then there's a delay getting hot water.

Surely that's still less wasted heat than that given off by the huge surface area of a DHW cylinder, even with lagging?


Agreed, nothing wrong with that, sorry if I gave that impression. It's the next bit ...
Clearly the small front room upstairs is fed from two pipes which are touching and not lagged - the flow temp is a full 15&#730; less than some other rads!
Perhaps the radiator isn't receiving sufficient flow? The two pipes touching probably wouldn't result in such a large reduction in flow temperature, and the pipework run would have to be quite long for such a drop to have occurred due to lack of pipe insulation.
Based on heat output and temperature drop, I reckon there's adequate flow. I suspect that the two pipes are clipped together - so the flow and return are exchanging heat - the cooler return cools the flow, dropping the rad temp, and of course by the time the return gets back to the main pipe it's been reheated in the process of cooling the flow.

The reason I'm inclined not to believe that it's an issue with the pipes being clipped together is that there is a much larger difference in temperature between the pipework and the air surrounding it, yet that isn't causing you any problems with excessively low flow temperature elsewhere. Granted that air isn't as good a transfer medium for heat as metal-on-metal, but this is likely weighed out by the fact that the temperature differential between the flow and return is minimal in comparison.

I assume you meant to write "below plaster", it's the sort of thing I do, think one word, write another :rolleyes: Yeah, it's not the end of the world.

You got it!
 
Don't know why some members on here are being abusive towards you?.........

The Op had a post a while back where he installed a thermal store. Top job and if he's a diyer then quite a clever chappie. Pulled bends, neat pipework etc.
However if you then go on to have a pop at plumbers it will be picked up on quickly, particulary if the subject is thermal stores as one certain previous member could have started a fight with his shadow over them.
 
DPS seem to be having problems also......
http://tinyurl.com/4xt77g3

Though their website is still up and running.

i think alot of these cylinder manufacturers were hoping to do well out of a renewables boom but it hasnt really happened. My personal opinion is that there is no benefit of thermal stores in small/average sized domestic applications unless its to utilise renewables/multifuel purposes and up til now its only really new builds they get specd, hence why Gledhill run into trouble in the recession.
 
DPS seem to be having problems also......
http://tinyurl.com/4xt77g3

Though their website is still up and running.

i think alot of these cylinder manufacturers were hoping to do well out of a renewables boom but it hasnt really happened. My personal opinion is that there is no benefit of thermal stores in small/average sized domestic applications unless its to utilise renewables/multifuel purposes and up til now its only really new builds they get specd, hence why Gledhill run into trouble in the recession.

Or maybe installers don't fancy crawling up and down bloody roofs with fekin great panels, and then trying to get into itchy dirty dusty filthy probably asbestosy cramped roof spaces to get a bloody great cylinder in it, and then sweat their *******s off plumbing it all in on a hot day, look what a ballache it is to work on just a boiler in a loft, or maybe this has nothing to do with it..........
 

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