Trying to change light in my loft

[porkypeake]

Please can someone help me?

I am trying to change the light in my loft from a regular bulb holder to a fluorescent tube. There is a switch on the landing and it worked fine but I just wanted a brighter light up there.

When I took the bulb holder down I didn't make a note of what wires went where and I realise now that was stupid but here I am and I know for next time.

My problem is I only have two sets of wires up there. Each set is a Red, Black and Earth so I have six wires altogether. Everywhere I've tried to look on the Internet talks about another set of wires as a 'live switch' but I don't have that despite there being a switch on the landing.

My fluorescent tube only has three connections but also provided a 4th block for 'loop termination if necessary'.

So I went ahead and connected both red cables in the live, both earths in the earth and both black cables in the neutral. It didn't work and now none of my upstairs lights work. I've checked the fuse box and the fuse still seems ok.

So....can I achieve what I wanted to do in the first place and how do I do it please?

Thank you in advance for any assistance.

 

[holmslaw]

..

 

[porkypeake]

Thanks.. but I don't have that third set of wires that are going back to the switch?

 

[riveralt]

It is normal for ceiling roses etc to have at least three cables - 2 for the loop and one for the switch. Although if the rose is at the end of the circuit you may have only two cables - one for the end of the loop and one for the switch. However, since you say that none of your upstairs lights now work and the fuse is okay then that would suggest your loft light is at the start of the circuit and so should have three cables.
Was the old light - part of a ceiling rose pendant?

You will need to get in the loft and see if you can trace where each cable goes. You say that one goes to the switch - check how the wires are arranged in the switch. Normally the red will be in the common with the black(with red sleeve) in the L1 terminal.

Photographs of the switch cable connections, the new light and the old light connections would also be helpful.
Do you own a multimeter?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I've checked the fuse box and the fuse still seems ok.

Re-wire the fuse anyway - see what happens.

 

[porkypeake]

Hi guys, thanks for your replies, this is where I'm at now:

I have traced the two sets of wires back; one set goes back to the switch on the landing and one set goes back to the ceiling rose on the landing.

So I guess my set up is more like this:

Untitled

• porkypeake
• 20 May 2011
• 1

I have wired it up as per that diagram but still no joy.

The ceiling rose on the landing is a 2-way light controlled from the hall as well. It is still working ok so I guess that must be part of the 'downstairs' lights. They are all working but none of my upstairs lights are. If my loft light is linked how I think, why would it even have affected the rest of my upstairs lights?

I have swapped the fuses in the consumer unit between upstairs and downstairs fuses, same result.

I have changed the switch for the loft light with another one, still no good.

Any more advice would be most welcome. I am more anxious now about the upstairs lights, my wife will tolerate not having a loft light but.....

Thanks for your time.

 

[riveralt]

If you have wired the loft lighting unit as per diagram then it should work, especially if as you say the loft light is in effect directly connected to the downstairs lighting circuit via the landing light and this continues to work.

Are you sure you haven't disturbed another light on the upstairs circuit - because if the above applies and the upstairs lights worked before then this can be the only explanation - assuming fuses are okay?

Do you have a multimeter because you may need to test whether or not you actually have power to the loft light?

 

[porkypeake]

Hi riveralt,

No I don't have a multimeter I'm afraid. If it's worth it I will get one though probably won't be until tomorrow now.

I don't think I affected anything else but I guess it is possible.

Thanks for posting.

 

[riveralt]

The ceiling rose on the landing is a 2-way light controlled from the hall as well. It is still working ok so I guess that must be part of the 'downstairs' lights. They are all working but none of my upstairs lights are. If my loft light is linked how I think, why would it even have affected the rest of my upstairs lights?

Are you 100% sure that the landing light is on the downstair lighting circuit and not the first leg on the upstairs circuit?
If it is the first leg on the upstairs lighting circuit then while this light may work any fault here such as a loose may affect everything after it.

 

[porkypeake]

Are you 100% sure that the landing light is on the downstair lighting circuit and not the first leg on the upstairs circuit?
If it is the first leg on the upstairs lighting circuit then while this light may work any fault here such as a loose may affect everything after it.

Just an update: I took the fuse out for the 'downstairs' lights and the light on my landing wouldn't work. Once the fuse is back in, it works fine.

So I guess it is definately on the downstairs circuit.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

What type of fuses do you have in the consumer unit?
Do you have picture of it?
The fuse that is protecting the upstairs lighting circuit is not also protected by an RCD is it, that has tripped out and needs re-setting?
Be careful pal, you should be proving the circuit is dead before you touch it, and if you have not got the correct equipment to do that, it is a very dangerous game to play.

 

[riveralt]

Just an update: I took the fuse out for the 'downstairs' lights and the light on my landing wouldn't work. Once the fuse is back in, it works fine.

So I guess it is definately on the downstairs circuit.

Okay so perhaps we are dealing with two separate issues here. Firstly, the loft light - linked to downstairs circuit via a working landing light and secondly another problem with the upstairs lighting circuit.

Dealing with the loft light and sorry to be pedandict but if you had the bulb in place when you first incorrectly wired the loft light you may have blown the bulb or caused a problem with the starter. It might be worthwhile replacing the either the bulb and/or the starter or alternatively put a ceiling rose and pendant lamp up with a bulb you know is working and wire as per diagram.

Also double check RCD/fuse as per Prenticeboyofderry's suggestion.

 

[porkypeake]

What type of fuses do you have in the consumer unit?
Do you have picture of it?
The fuse that is protecting the upstairs lighting circuit is not also protected by an RCD is it, that has tripped out and needs re-setting?
Be careful pal, you should be proving the circuit is dead before you touch it, and if you have not got the correct equipment to do that, it is a very dangerous game to play.

I have an old fashioned fusebox.

Untitled

• porkypeake
• 20 May 2011
• 1

As far as I am aware there is no RCD.

Everything I have done has been with the Main Switch OFF.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Dealing with the loft light and sorry to be pedandict but if you had the bulb in place when you first incorrectly wired the loft light you may have blown the bulb or caused a problem with the starter.

Can't see how that would be possible.

The most likely thing wrong with the loft light is a damaged switch and/or cable following the L-N fault.

The upstairs lighting problem could be as simple as having pulled a cable loose whilst working in the loft.

And now for something else....

We have:

1) Rewireable fuses, so probably an installation of a certain age.

2) A landing light on the downstairs circuit.

Anybody like to offer odds on a borrowed neutral? Porky - how many conductors link the landing and hall switches? If it's just 2 then you've got the classic borrowed neutral created when what was originally one lighting circuit was split into two.

This is nothing to do with your problem, but it's something else which should be sorted. Until it is you need to remove the fuses for both circuits when working on either one.


http://www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:sneutral

 

[porkypeake]

Okay so perhaps we are dealing with two separate issues here. Firstly, the loft light - linked to downstairs circuit via a working landing light and secondly another problem with the upstairs lighting circuit.

Dealing with the loft light and sorry to be pedandict but if you had the bulb in place when you first incorrectly wired the loft light you may have blown the bulb or caused a problem with the starter. It might be worthwhile replacing the either the bulb and/or the starter or alternatively put a ceiling rose and pendant lamp up with a bulb you know is working and wire as per diagram.

Also double check RCD/fuse as per Prenticeboyofderry's suggestion.

I have re-attached the previous rose and bulb and that is still not working.

I've got a multi-meter now and I have done a continuity test on the Switch wires and that was ok.

I'm not sure what I should test next with the multi-meter?