Dangerous Threads

Because this is a DIY site and the law allows us to DIY electrics but not gas.
Actually, unless it's changes since I last looked it up, that is not the case. The law does allow for work on gas provided it is not by way of a trade - I forget the exact wording. So it is legal to do DIY gas in your own home, but not (for example) in a house you rent out (that would be part of your trade in renting property). You could also legally work on a neighbour/friends gas as long as that wasn't by way of any trade - ie done as a favour and no consideration is involved (whether cash or otherwise).

However, the proprietors of this forum have made the decision (which I'm not going to disagree with) that while it's legal, DIY gas work is very much not advised - and so discussion of it is not allowed. Having the closed CC forum seems a good way round allowing those who are qualified to discuss gas matters that really shouldn't be discussed in the open if you aren't allowing discussion of DIY gas work.
 
I assume you mean we are allowed to do "some" DIY electrics.
I don't believe that is the case - we are allowed to do pretty well any electrics on a DIY basis (at least if we keep the discussion to domestics). The fact that some is notifiable doesn't make it unlawful or "not allowed".

Whether someone is competent to do any particular work (whether electric or gas) is a different question.
 
Having the closed CC forum seems a good way round allowing those who are qualified to discuss gas matters that really shouldn't be discussed in the open if you aren't allowing discussion of DIY gas work.
Or if the gas merchants are a bunch of lazy ***s who have a policy of lying to people because they cannot be bothered to take the trouble to explain the truth.
 
Which law disallows DIY gas work?
He'll be thinking the common misinterpretation of The Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 and failing to observe all the language about employers and employees, self employed, etc.

Obviously 3(1) applies to everyone, but 3(2) and 3(3) don't apply where there is no employment - ie someone doing DIY in their own house.
I would also say that doing work for a friend/neighbour with no consideration given or expected in exchange would also not be "employment" and also not covered by 3(2) and 3(3).

Or if the gas merchants are a bunch of lazy ***s who have a policy of lying to people because they cannot be bothered to take the trouble to explain the truth,
Not that any electricians would fail to explain just how much a 'non registered' person is actually still allowed to do :roll:
 
Having the closed CC forum seems a good way round allowing those who are qualified to discuss gas matters that really shouldn't be discussed in the open if you aren't allowing discussion of DIY gas work.
Or if the gas merchants are a bunch of lazy ***s who have a policy of lying to people because they cannot be bothered to take the trouble to explain the truth.


Bit harsh ban all sheds ? :)
 
Seem to remember with Gas you are required to have the skill and tools even to do work for yourself?

But with Electrics is seems very few who DIY have either the skill or tools! Talk to any DIY guy and ask him what the loop impedance reading was.

He is still suppose to fill in the installation certificate and if one of the notifiable areas present it to the LABC.

Personally I would like to see the LABC charges slashed but allow them to re-charge every time they need to re-test.

I think most DIY guys know jolly well they don't have the skill and if they thought they may need to pay again and again when they got it wrong would never attempt it.

But what I am more worried about are short cuts which we all likely take but understand the dangers. For example I know I have often missed out many of the dead tests as I know I can test when live far easier working out the loop impedance is a real pain dead. However I also have a good idea of what is likely to pass. Where I know it is on the edge I then will work it all out first.

However read this forum and see how many times DIY guys are advised as to what is required to for example add a spur with no reference to loop impedance. So we get the guy who has read the posts and thought there is no problem replacing an isolator for his immersion heater with a RCD FCU and using it to supply something 10 meters away. Well it may be OK. It also could be well over the permitted impedance and we are so use to testing as a matter of course we forget to tell the guy about the problems with high loop impedance.

What the DIY gets is half the story. And since it would need reams of instructions to tell him it all that is all he will ever get.

My Dad is typical it's not my shower is faulty it keeps tripping the RCD it's there is something wrong with the RCD it keeps tripping when I use my shower. Try and point it out and you get that shower I put fitted in 1985 and it all worked fine until you fitted that RCD thing.

That cable is not think enough. Yes it is I bought it in B&Q it said it was 47 amp cable. Yes clipped direct but it's not clipped direct. Answer 47 amp cable is 47 amp cable or they would not call it 47 amp cable. All one can do is shake a head and walk away.

My father-in-law had the answer "These people who think they know it all are especially annoying to those of us that do".
 
Seem to remember with Gas you are required to have the skill and tools even to do work for yourself?

But with Electrics is seems very few who DIY have either the skill or tools!
The Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998

3.—(1) No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so.

The same applies to electrics, though it's probably somewhere a bit more obscure as there isn't a specific law controlling electrical work in the same way as gas. I'm sure B-A-S will have chapter and verse :wink:, and I'd guess for domestics there'll be a catch-all in Part P. Outside of domestics and it'll be covered by things like the Electricity At Work regulations and all the general H&S regs etc.
 
I'm sure B-A-S will have chapter and verse :wink:,
Nothing that people shouldn't already know all about.




and I'd guess for domestics there'll be a catch-all in Part P. Outside of domestics and it'll be covered by things like the Electricity At Work regulations and all the general H&S regs etc.
For non-workplace or other regulated environments Part P is all there is.

And "Reasonable provision shall be made in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installations from fire or injury" is just as non-prescriptive as "No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so".
 
And "Reasonable provision shall be made in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installations from fire or injury" is just as non-prescriptive as "No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so".
True - neither matters until the brown stuff hits the fan. If you are stood there in the dock being asked questions, one of them will be "what training or qualifications do you have to allow you to claim competence ?"

I don't think something like "I've been doing it for years with no problems" or "I learned some stuff off the internet" will get you very far. On the other hand, an electrician able to cite C&G this that and the other, or a gas person citing whatever their qualifications are, is likely to get more respect.

But that isn't enough anyway. I was told a story of a local gas fitter, who found that a particular gas hob was difficult to fit using any service valve being sold at that time and specifically marked as for gas use. He did find another valve - good quality, made of brass, etc - which he assessed as being suitable and which made the job a lot easier/neater. After using about 10 of these, one of his customers smelt gas (not actually coming from the valve) and called BG - who on spotting this valve without any magic markings reported him. The upshot was, that he ended up before the beak, who took the attitude that "the valve wasn't specifically marked as for gas use - therefore guilty".
That's the story as relayed to me - though I can't say if there wasn't anything else behind it that's not included.

But if you follow modern lawmaking, especially during Tony Bliars reign, you'll see there's been a big shift in legal style. They've moved a lot from prescriptive stuff, to "you must assess" type of stuff. Part of that is deliberate as a key objective (AFAICT) is to make laws as vague as possible and so stop people from doing stuff you don't want them to do - but can't make illegal. Ie, the boundaries are so vague that people have to stay well away from the grey areas in order to avoid straying "into danger". Thus laws to control "extreme terrorism" or "extreme pornography" being used for stuff that's well bluntly neither of those and to most people not objectionable. The key is making it so that people cannot find out in advance if something (often considered completely acceptable) is illegal or not - that way you can "write the law" afterwards and get away with effectively banning stuff that you'd never have got through openly.
But I digress. Back a bit closer to topic, consider fire precautions in buildings. It used to be the case that you could get the local Fire Service in and they could say yay or nay - and make recommendations for improvements. That's all gone, AIUI they are no longer allowed to express an opinion and it is up to each building owner/responsible person to do a risk assessment. Of course, few have the skills (or more importantly, qualifications) so it's become a nice little earner for consultancies to do this for you. And of course, many building owners are using them for no other reason that if it ends up in court they can say "but I employed a professional and he assessed as ...". The consultant may say nothing you don't already know, but it gives you someone to blame if it all goes tits-up.

Sad that we've arrived here already.
 

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