hello ive got a room with surface trunking that i want to get rid of and still keep the socket its a spur running from 1 socket at one side of the room to another socket at the other side of the room , i want to bury the wires in the wall, the sockets are also at skirtingboard height, i cant go under the floor because its solid and i dont want to disturb the oak flooring upstairs also i dont want to mess the ceiling up with holes, so my questions are is it ok to run the wires along the skirting and bury them and use metal capping to protect them?, is this aloud as its between 2 visible sockets and is it in a safe zone? also would i need a ticket for such work as it is existing ? thanks in advance for any answers
safe zone between 2 sockets
- Thread starter stevethespreader
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Using Ali-tube or mineral insulated cable there would be very little problem in extending this way horizontal is permitted. In both cases the cable is not too intrusive anyway and likely surface would be good enough.
Metal capping to BS EN 61386 or BS EN 50085 is a problem to find and phrases like "be mechanically protected against damage sufficient to prevent penetration of the cable by nails, screws and the like" don't really help try a Hilti nail gun and see what it will go through. So the 150 mm from the top of the wall or partition would seem only option where special cable is not used.
Reading the regulations is easy, working out what they mean is something else hence why there are guides. So lets for a moment forget the regulations and look at what's safe.
Metal capping is clearly something to be avoided unless it is earthed as a fault in one area can be transmitted to another area in the same way as with water or gas pipes. As with water pipes in a bathroom where ALL circuits are RCD protected then there is a case for not earthing.
Returning to regulations "A cable concealed in a wall or partition the internal construction of which includes metallic part, other than metallic fixings such as nails, screws and the like, shall:" clearly will cover any wall with metal capping in it. Yes I know we have used it for years, we also had no earths to light fittings before 1970's that does not make it right.
I have used the metal capping over micro-bore central heating pipes so the fact it's sold does not mean it can be used over electric cables which are not from the list BS 5467, BS 6346. BS 6724, BS 7846, BS EN 60702-1 or BS 8436 and before you ask twin and earth does not comply with any of them.
There will be a way to do it and comply but without looking at the job to decide which is not easy. Theory has Ali-tube top of list but to date I have not found a supplier who will sell by lenght rather than by the role.
I have used assorts of methods including cutting channels in concrete floors to get a cable to where I want it.
As to would I need a ticket. This will depend where. And who it is to satisfy. LABC, HSE, and Insurance Companies are require different things and although I am fully qualified as an electrician unless employed by some one as an electrician I could fall foul of insurance cover if I did electrical work. The site assess also changes under HSE so although one safety card may cover you for other work for electrical it may be different.
You don't say if in Scotland or other areas of UK. If domestic or industrial or what your trade and other qualifications are. So there is no answer.
Metal capping to BS EN 61386 or BS EN 50085 is a problem to find and phrases like "be mechanically protected against damage sufficient to prevent penetration of the cable by nails, screws and the like" don't really help try a Hilti nail gun and see what it will go through. So the 150 mm from the top of the wall or partition would seem only option where special cable is not used.
Reading the regulations is easy, working out what they mean is something else hence why there are guides. So lets for a moment forget the regulations and look at what's safe.
Metal capping is clearly something to be avoided unless it is earthed as a fault in one area can be transmitted to another area in the same way as with water or gas pipes. As with water pipes in a bathroom where ALL circuits are RCD protected then there is a case for not earthing.
Returning to regulations "A cable concealed in a wall or partition the internal construction of which includes metallic part, other than metallic fixings such as nails, screws and the like, shall:" clearly will cover any wall with metal capping in it. Yes I know we have used it for years, we also had no earths to light fittings before 1970's that does not make it right.
I have used the metal capping over micro-bore central heating pipes so the fact it's sold does not mean it can be used over electric cables which are not from the list BS 5467, BS 6346. BS 6724, BS 7846, BS EN 60702-1 or BS 8436 and before you ask twin and earth does not comply with any of them.
There will be a way to do it and comply but without looking at the job to decide which is not easy. Theory has Ali-tube top of list but to date I have not found a supplier who will sell by lenght rather than by the role.
I have used assorts of methods including cutting channels in concrete floors to get a cable to where I want it.
As to would I need a ticket. This will depend where. And who it is to satisfy. LABC, HSE, and Insurance Companies are require different things and although I am fully qualified as an electrician unless employed by some one as an electrician I could fall foul of insurance cover if I did electrical work. The site assess also changes under HSE so although one safety card may cover you for other work for electrical it may be different.
You don't say if in Scotland or other areas of UK. If domestic or industrial or what your trade and other qualifications are. So there is no answer.
thanks for the long reply im in england and im not a sparky i was going to get someone to change the sockets over for me after i had buried the cable , i think i can remember someone telling me you dont need certificates like minor work certificates if its existing, but if it do need certs then ill get a proper sparky in to do it, btw when i said ticket i meant certificate so do you think it will be ok with alu tube or mineral cable ? the sockets are rcd protected also and would there be any need for work certificates? cheers
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Use the safe zones as linked by riveralt.
The sockets most be RCD protected if cable is buried less than 50mm or have mechanical protection of the cable.
If you are chasing out, depths of chases in to brick/block/stone work must also comply to building regulations.
On the horizontal chase, the depth can be no more than 1/6th of the brick/block/stone works depth and on the vertical 1/3rd.
If RCD protection is not at the board, compliance can be achieved by installing a 13A RCD fused connection, at a point before you bury the cable.
As far as ticket/certification, if the room is not deemed in a notifiable location (eg. kitchen, bathroom, shower, outside)
Either an electrical installation certificate or a minor works certificate would be required. But will not need notification to building controls.
The sockets most be RCD protected if cable is buried less than 50mm or have mechanical protection of the cable.
If you are chasing out, depths of chases in to brick/block/stone work must also comply to building regulations.
On the horizontal chase, the depth can be no more than 1/6th of the brick/block/stone works depth and on the vertical 1/3rd.
If RCD protection is not at the board, compliance can be achieved by installing a 13A RCD fused connection, at a point before you bury the cable.
As far as ticket/certification, if the room is not deemed in a notifiable location (eg. kitchen, bathroom, shower, outside)
Either an electrical installation certificate or a minor works certificate would be required. But will not need notification to building controls.
cheers pbod but if the brick is 100mm thick and the cable has to be buried 50mm deep, but you are not allowed to go any more deeper than 1/6, how how can it be done? also i think the wall maybe 2 bricks thick im not 100% on that, ericmark has given me an idea of chopping out some floor to fit the cable its a bitumin screed on concrete so i may think about doing that, im a bit gutted im going need a certificate i was hoping to get somone i know to do it , so lets just recap 1/6 of the thickness of the wall if its 2 bricks thick thats just over 3 cms? or 1 brick would be 1 and a half cm , but your not allowed to have it shallower than 50mm?
Are the sockets on the same wall and at the same height?
Is the circuit protected by an RCD?
If the sockets are indeed on the same wall (even adjacent walls) and same height then simply chasing the cable into the wall and covering with PVC capping would be fine though the circuit would require protection from a 30mA RCD if the cable will be less than 50mm from the surface.
That would only be minor works and wouldn't be notifiable under Part P of the Building Regulations.
Is the circuit protected by an RCD?
If the sockets are indeed on the same wall (even adjacent walls) and same height then simply chasing the cable into the wall and covering with PVC capping would be fine though the circuit would require protection from a 30mA RCD if the cable will be less than 50mm from the surface.
That would only be minor works and wouldn't be notifiable under Part P of the Building Regulations.
If there is another wall between the old socket and the new (two right angles) you could still do it by fitting a socket on the middle wall (to show that there is a cable there).
Plus, don't forget you can go up at the corners (within 150mm.) so you new sockets can be at a height you want.
Edited - 1500mm mistake for future readers.
Plus, don't forget you can go up at the corners (within 150mm.) so you new sockets can be at a height you want.
Edited - 1500mm mistake for future readers.
He would then have a spur off a spur and it's 150mm, not 1500mm.
But, I'll let you off because I know what you mean!
yes they are on the same wall just above the skirting, and they are rcd protected i think, so would i require a minor works cert ? cheers
It can't, as you could possible damage the structure of the wall.
The regulations refer to walls thickness or if a cavity wall the thickness of that leaf.
Be careful when cutting to bituman floors you can damage the DPM.
At least a minor work certificate would be needed, if your friend has the correct test equipment, the forms can be downloaded.
If for ease of calculation your wall is 200mm thick then you can chase 33.33mm in to wall horizontally. If it is a cavity wall and the leaf is 100mm then only 16.6mm can be chased.so lets just recap 1/6 of the thickness of the wall if its 2 bricks thick thats just over 3 cms? or 1 brick would be 1 and a half cm , but your not allowed to have it shallower than 50mm?
You are allowed it to be shallower but then RCD protection will be needed on the part of the circuit that is being buried, unless you mechanically protect the cable against damage.
Nothing is being altered as such so based on that, not many electricians would even bother filling in a minor works certificate.
Firstly you would need to know for sure they are RCD protected, the fact they are being buried means that additional protective measures need to be taken, that is why RCD protection may be required.
It's a matter of interpretation whether you consider that it is minor works or not!
http://www.haringey.gov.uk/electrical_safety_in_dwellings.pdf
He says his sockets are same wall, same height and if they're RCD protected then it's simply a case of chasing in a length of cable.
At the very most and that's even stretching it there will only be a MWC completed.
ok thanks to everyone for contributing to my post and i have one last question and that is regarding the minor works cert, my question is can anybody d load one an fill it out ? or has it got to be a sparky,
also if some sparkys dont isue them for this kind of work as hardly anythings changing i may let my friend do it thanks
also if some sparkys dont isue them for this kind of work as hardly anythings changing i may let my friend do it thanks
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