earthing

[jvarikat1]

How/why did you investigate ?

I was getting a small shock on microwave on that socket, hence opened the socket, only to find live n neutral

cheers

joe

 

[JohnW2]

... prove circuit is dead by using approved voltage indicator and ...

PBoD, if I dare to make a suggestion .... for very good reason, you often make the above statement in your responses to OPs, but I wonder if many DIYers actually understand what sort/piece of equipment you are referring to. Whilst I know what sort I things I would use for proving dead, even I am not at all sure what you mean by an "approved voltage indicator" -"approved" by whom? Might there not be a more DIYer-friendly form of words that you could use?

[BTW, I totally agree with your response to the OP]

Kind Regards, John

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Approved Voltage Indicator is a term I have been brought up with when describing electrical test equipment that is used to test voltage.
And the probes/leads should be compliant to GS38, which I am sure you are aware of John, but for those that are not
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/gs38.pdf

Therefore approved by the HSE.

Hope this sheds some clarity!

and if help is required on the procedures to take:
http://www.auberelectrical.co.uk/documents/best_practice_guide_2.pdf

 

[JohnW2]

Approved Voltage Indicator is a term I have been brought up with when describing electrical test equipment that is used to test voltage.
And the probes/leads should be compliant to GS38, which I am sure you are aware of John, but for those that are not http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/gs38.pdf ... Therefore approved by the HSE. Hope this sheds some clarity!

Fair enough - and, as you say, I am already aware of all that. However, my point remains that when one is giving this important advice to OPs in this forum, one should probably try to use language which will have some meaning to them. It's a bit of a vicious circle - since anyone who needs to be told about 'testing for dead' is probably not going to understand what a 'approved voltage indicator' is!

As for details, as you say, the leads/probes of the device could be 'approved' (compliant with GS38) but your usual wording implies that the device itself is 'approved', and I'm still not sure what that would mean.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JBR]

It occurred to me that if this socket has no earth, other sockets may be the same. If I were you I wouldn't use ANY of them until they have been checked and, if necessary, rectified.

I can't believe that someone has installed power sockets without an earth, especially in a kitchen.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

but your usual wording implies that the device itself is 'approved', and I'm still not sure what that would mean.

You're not an idiot John, I am sure you fully understand what I mean!
With regards to my terminology and the OPs understanding of them, if they do not understand the meanings, they can ask and I will be pleased to elaborate, as you will have seen if you have followed any of my posts when terminologies have been questioned. Or for the less lazy they can do some research into what they are doing and what instruction I have made.
Either way providing the work is done safely, compliant and the results are satisfactory then everyone should be happy.

 

[JohnW2]

but your usual wording implies that the device itself is 'approved', and I'm still not sure what that would mean.

You're not an idiot John, I am sure you fully understand what I mean!

I like to think that I'm not an idiot and, as I said, I fully understand what sort of devices should be used for 'testing for dead'. However, I truly don't really know what is meant by an 'approved voltage indicator' - unless it simply means any voltage indicator which has GS38-compliant leads/probes (and even that would mean nothing to most DIYers).

With regards to my terminology and the OPs understanding of them, if they do not understand the meanings, they can ask and I will be pleased to elaborate ...

I'm really not getting at you, or being critical - I'm trying to be constructive in the interests of this DIY forum. I'm in a similar 'interesting' position to that of a number of the other 'regulars' in this forum, in that I understand quite a lot, and certainly understand 'electrician-talk' but, at the same time am a non-electrician with a reasonable idea of what the average member of the general public probably understands and doesn't understand.

Yes, if people don't understand what you write, they can ask for clarification and I'm sure you would be pleased to provide it. However, I am sure you would agree that it makes sense to initially write in language which at least an appreciable proportion of DIYers would understand, and I still don't think that many people who needed to be told about 'how to test for dead' would understand what an "approved voltage indicator" is.

For example, if one Googles "approved voltage indicator" (with the quotes) one doesn't get a lot of help (except some references to GS38 leads/probe). Indeed, several of the early hits relate to discussions started by people asking "what is an 'approved voltage indicator?' " (and usually not getting very clear answers!).

Kind Regards, John

 

[bernardgreen]

Approved Voltage Indicator~~

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/gs38.pdf

Therefore approved by the HSE

I cannot find the word "approved" in that document. There is a series of sensibly recommendations about how the equipment should be constructed.

Approvals are normally issued by independent testing organisations based on the sensible input from HSE and other informed sources.

 

[JohnW2]

I cannot find the word "approved" in that document. There is a series of sensibly recommendations about how the equipment should be constructed. Approvals are normally issued by independent testing organisations based on the sensible input from HSE and other informed sources.

I've just spent a while trying to put myself into the position of a DIYer who had been told that (s)he needed to acquire an "approved voltage indicator" and who was using the internet to find something suitable to buy.

I would say that I more-or-less 'failed'. I could find few, if any, that described themselves as 'approved', or indicated that they had been 'approved' by any body. Some of the two-pole ones mentioned that leads/probes were GS38-compliant, and some mentioned Standards to which they complied. Worst, a high proportion of the items for sale called 'voltage indicators' were not two-pole ones. Had I been that DIYer, I really don't know what I would have ended up buying.

Kind Regards, John

 

[stillp]

It occurred to me that if this socket has no earth, other sockets may be the same. If I were you I wouldn't use ANY of them until they have been checked and, if necessary, rectified.

I can't believe that someone has installed power sockets without an earth, especially in a kitchen.

Is it possible the wiring is in metal conduit and that was relied upon to provide the earth connection?
Of course even if that is the case there should be a fly lead to the earth terminal of the socket.

 

[securespark]

I can't believe that someone has installed power sockets without an earth, especially in a kitchen.

I have seen it before where sockets (13A) have been fed off the lighting.

If this is the case and the lighting has no cpc, then that could account for the situation.

Alternatively, it could be a death-trap DIY job where the cpc is present but has been cut back and one or both ends, or it could be a spur where the conductor has come loose from the supply end.

And of course, there is the scenario mentioned: conduit is used as the cpc.

I have seen an old council house, wired in the 50's using conduit as the cpc. Over the years, the single boxes were hacked out (with the emphasis on hacked.... ) and replaced with 2 gang, where the conduit wasn't actually reconnected to the box, just butted up to it....!!