Wasn't the cost of copper the reason why rings were invented.
And the reason for cable thefts these days.
And the reason for cable thefts these days.
Current Oven Wire
- Thread starter dball
- Start date
Shortage, rather than cost, I think - but yes, I believe so. However, that does not mean that it is a particularly relevant issue now. You were talking about new builds, and, even if one used as much 4mm² for radials as one would have used 2.5mm² for rings, the different in cost would not be particularly significant in relation to the cost of the house as a whole.
Sure, but I don't think there is any significant theft of cable from domestic sockets circuits, whether they are rings or radials - so that probably doesn't come in to the ring/radial decision process
Kind Regards, John
I'm not sure it's relavant to compare the cost of a roll of cable with the cost of a house lol.
Sure, but I don't think there is any significant theft of cable from domestic sockets circuits, whether they are rings or radials - so that probably doesn't come in to the ring/radial decision process
Its more of an issue than you might believe... these days one cannot start first fixing properties on housing estates until the doors and windows are in!
I've seen many instances of a few metres of externally run 10mm 6491x green yellow for bonding having been taken !
Fair enough, during construction - but, even then, I reckon they'd pinch the 2.5mm² cable of a ring circuit just as happily as the they would pinch the 4mm² cable of a radial oneIts more of an issue than you might believe... these days one cannot start first fixing properties on housing estates until the doors and windows are in! I've seen many instances of a few metres of externally run 10mm 6491x green yellow for bonding having been taken !Sure, but I don't think there is any significant theft of cable from domestic sockets circuits, whether they are rings or radials - so that probably doesn't come in to the ring/radial decision process
Kind Regards, John
Well, it was you who introduced the issue of cost of cable in relation to new builds - but, yes, as I said, I don't think the cost of a roll of cable is relevant in relation to the overall cost of the build!
Kind Regards, John
I'm sure developers will do anything they can to reduce a penny here and a penny there, whether that will be material costs or time/ease of install.
A few pounds on electrical items will add up along with other area's to a reduction of the cost to build a house and the cost to built an estate.
I guess they leave it up to electricans to cost, so they come up with a solution that is cheap, quick to install and acceptable to the regulations and the home owners.
Regarding cable thefts, I was pointing out that copper shortage or cost is as much of a problem now as it was when rings were invented.
A few pounds on electrical items will add up along with other area's to a reduction of the cost to build a house and the cost to built an estate.
I guess they leave it up to electricans to cost, so they come up with a solution that is cheap, quick to install and acceptable to the regulations and the home owners.
Regarding cable thefts, I was pointing out that copper shortage or cost is as much of a problem now as it was when rings were invented.
I don't doubt that that is all true. I really don't know what the actual cost impact of the radial/ring difference is likely to make, but I feel sure that it will be pretty small. Radials will probably usually require a bit more copper, whereas rings will involve a little more time (hence cost) in cable installation and, even more so, in testing.
As I said, I'm pretty neutral as regards the ring/radial debate. However, what I am sure of is that the debate and decision should be conducted on the basis of electrical/safety considerations (in which terms the differences are fairly small, and 'debatable'), not fairly minor differences in cost.
Kind Regards, John
If you are installing a circuit with the same current capability
i.e a ring in 2.5mm and radial in 4mm
then I think the install time of the radial would be more
granted there is more time to test a ring.
It's debatable, and would obviously vary from case to case. I think the fact that we are discussing such details underlines my belief that any cost differences are pretty small.
In any event, as I said, the choice/decision should be made on the basis of electrical/safety considerations, not considerations of small differences in cost.
Kind Regards, John
I went to the screwfix website to look at prices.
They don't appear to sell 4mm rolls in 100m (only 50m), not much call for it!
4mm 50m £73
2.5mm 50m £30.50
2.5mm 100m £53
So you get twice as much 2.5mm as 4mm, and for £20 less.
I think that's a significant different in cost.
In fact you can get 6mm for a couple of quid more than 4mm. (50m roll)
http://www.screwfix.com/c/electrica...category=cat830472&page_size=20&page_start=20
They don't appear to sell 4mm rolls in 100m (only 50m), not much call for it!
4mm 50m £73
2.5mm 50m £30.50
2.5mm 100m £53
So you get twice as much 2.5mm as 4mm, and for £20 less.
I think that's a significant different in cost.
In fact you can get 6mm for a couple of quid more than 4mm. (50m roll)
http://www.screwfix.com/c/electrica...category=cat830472&page_size=20&page_start=20
It doesn't help the argument but it depends what you want to do:
http://www.discount-electrical.co.u...6242y-grey-twin---earth-cable-4-0mm-100m-reel
http://www.discount-electrical.co.u...6242y-grey-twin---earth-cable-2-5mm-100m-reel
I haven't checked CEF which is where a lot seem to go so I presume that they think the customer is paying so it doesn't matter.
http://www.discount-electrical.co.u...6242y-grey-twin---earth-cable-4-0mm-100m-reel
http://www.discount-electrical.co.u...6242y-grey-twin---earth-cable-2-5mm-100m-reel
I haven't checked CEF which is where a lot seem to go so I presume that they think the customer is paying so it doesn't matter.
You're obviously determined to persist with these details! Say, for argument, you needed 100m of each to wire a house (although one would inevitably need at least a little less of 4mm²) - I make that a difference of £93. In passing, I'm not sure that (consumer-orientated) Screwfix is a very good place to look. TLC offers (incl VAT) 100m of 2.5mm for £44.40 and 100m of 4mm for £73.20 - so Screwfix's difference of £93 would fall to £33.20 if you shopped at TLC.
"Significant" in what context? What does a new house cost in your neck of the woods?
Are you really saying that the decision as to whether to design/install radials or rings should be based on that £93 (or £33.20, or whatever) cost difference, rather than intelligent decision making based on electrical/ safety considerations?
Kind Regards, John
The point of a 30A ring was to have ONE for the whole house. The other two circuits being for a cooker point , possibly with a socket outlet, and the lighting.
This did save cable compared to the earlier wiring which would have had multiple individually fused radials of various ratings. It also meant the fusebox was substantially smaller with only 3 or 4 circuits, and the whole lot was much quicker to install.
Overloading was not an issue, since few electrical appliances existed, and the only high powered items were electric fires, which were typically portable and moved to the rooms they were required in. Heating each room all the time would certainly not happen or even be considered.
Most kitchens had few or no electrical appliances other than the cooker. Possibly an electric kettle, which would plug into the socket on the cooker outlet.
Unfortunately some people today seem to believe that rings are the only way, and inexplicably install one for upstairs, one for downstairs, one for a kitchen and even another for a utility room. A total waste of time, money and materials.
This did save cable compared to the earlier wiring which would have had multiple individually fused radials of various ratings. It also meant the fusebox was substantially smaller with only 3 or 4 circuits, and the whole lot was much quicker to install.
Overloading was not an issue, since few electrical appliances existed, and the only high powered items were electric fires, which were typically portable and moved to the rooms they were required in. Heating each room all the time would certainly not happen or even be considered.
Most kitchens had few or no electrical appliances other than the cooker. Possibly an electric kettle, which would plug into the socket on the cooker outlet.
Unfortunately some people today seem to believe that rings are the only way, and inexplicably install one for upstairs, one for downstairs, one for a kitchen and even another for a utility room. A total waste of time, money and materials.
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