A thread for discussing "when is a Transformer not a Transformer" (technical and semantic)

So the Sun does not give off heat and light because of the energy released within it from the fusion of hydrogen into helium?
This is an existential issue that may be beyond your understanding, but things cannot have purpose unless purpose is bestowed on them by a self-aware intelligence, i.e. humans.

The sun was doing what it does long before humans arrived to start calling things 'hydrogen' or 'light' or 'electrons'. Hydrogen and light are purely human decriptions of natural phenomena that we cannot truly interact with. They are fictional models that we conjure to explain 'why' things happen, because that's the way our monkey brains (and the English language) have evolved to describe our world. But ultimately there is no 'why', no purpose, to anything natural, only to things we designed ourselves for our own purposes. If we claim the sun gives of light because of burning hydrogen, we are imposing a sense of design on the sun and a sense of purpose to the hydrogen. This is monkey brain thinking, which is fine for monkey-to-monkey conversations. An alien race might come up with different physical models of the world using an entirely different form of mathematics that we cannot even comprehend, but which works fine for the aliens, and both would be equally right, and both equally irrelevent to the sun who does not care what you call stuff.

Getting back to the point, an 'electronic component' is a descriptor invented by humans to describe things designed by humans to exploit an intangible natrual phenomenon that we happen to call 'electrons'.* Because we designed them with this exact purpose in mind, we can say they work because of electrons. By natural things do not work 'because of' electrons; they will contue to do what they do long after we have gone extinct and there is no one around to conceive the fictional model of what an electron might be. That is why a capacitor is an electronic component, and a human body is not; a human is not a device constructed by the principles of electronics.

*It is likely that in the future we will develop a new physical model that abandons the concept of electrons and quantum particles altogether!
 
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This is an existential issue that may be beyond your understanding, but things cannot have purpose unless purpose is bestowed on them by a self-aware intelligence, i.e. humans.
Why do you keep going on about purpose?


The sun was doing what it does long before humans arrived to start calling things 'hydrogen' or 'light' or 'electrons'.
Indeed it was.

How was it doing it?


They are fictional models that we conjure to explain 'why' things happen,
"Why" as in "How".

i.e. "Why does the Sun give off heat and light?" Ξ "How does the Sun give off heat and light?"

Not "Why" as in "For what purpose"

"Why did you steal that car?" is equivalent to "For what purpose did you steal that car?"

"Why does the Sun give off heat and light?" is not equivalent to "For what purpose does the Sun give off heat and light?"



because that's the way our monkey brains (and the English language) have evolved to describe our world. But ultimately there is no 'why', no purpose, to anything natural, only to things we designed ourselves for our own purposes. If we claim the sun gives of light because of burning hydrogen, we are imposing a sense of design on the sun and a sense of purpose to the hydrogen.
I would like you please to try and appear a little less stupid, if you can, because the extent of the stupidity of the things you are saying is rather spoiling what would otherwise be a series of amusing attempts to create diversions to distract people from noticing how you have failed wrt proving that the term "electronic transformer" should not be used.


This is monkey brain thinking, which is fine for monkey-to-monkey conversations. An alien race might come up with different physical models of the world using an entirely different form of mathematics that we cannot even comprehend, but which works fine for the aliens, and both would be equally right, and both equally irrelevent to the sun who does not care what you call stuff.
And would these aliens also be wrong if they said [translated]"Stars give off heat and light because of {processes}" [/translated]?

Getting back to the point, an 'electronic component' is a descriptor invented by humans to describe things designed by humans to exploit an intangible natrual phenomenon that we happen to call 'electrons'.* Because we designed them with this exact purpose in mind, we can say they work because of electrons. By natural things do not work 'because of' electrons; they will contue to do what they do long after we have gone extinct and there is no one around to conceive the fictional model of what an electron might be. That is why a capacitor is an electronic component, and a human body is not; a human is not a device constructed by the principles of electronics.
Jolly good. Now will you volunteer to have the 'intangible natural phenomenon that we happen to call electrons' within your body stopped from moving?
 
1) Electronic: of, relating to, or utilizing devices constructed or working by the methods or principles of electronics;
2) Device: a thing made or adapted for a particular purpose;

2) A transformer is a a thing made for a particular purpose. Therefore it is a device. It works on the principles and methods of electronics. Therefore it is an electronic transformer.
3) A human body is not made or adapted for a particular purpose. Therefore it is not a device. It does it work by the methods or principles of electronics.* Therefore it is not an electronic device.

I honestly don't know how to put it any simpler so you can understand it. I also honestly can't see why calling an AC-AC voltage transformer an "electronic device/component/transformer" offends you so much.

*Some parts of its functioning can be analogously likened to electronic components. This does not make it an electronic device. Some parts can be likened to mechanical components. This does not make it a machine.
 
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Jolly good. Now will you volunteer to have the 'intangible natural phenomenon that we happen to call electrons' within your body stopped from moving?
 
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Jolly good. Now will you volunteer to have the 'intangible natural phenomenon that we happen to call electrons' within your body stopped from moving?
Why, will that prove it is an electronic device/component? (Remember, there is more than one defintion of 'electronic'. It can also mean 'to do with electrons', in the same way that 'ionic' means 'to do with ions', if you happen to be a physicist studying that sort of thing)
 
The more I read the more I start to agree with Wilson. We consider electronic to be something using semi-conductors or thermic valves, and with out those components it is simply electric, however that is not really what the dictionary says, in the same way as we consider a transformer to be a wire wound device with no electronic components, even add a full wave rectifier and it changes name and becomes a power supply or battery eliminator.

We can't with one breath defend the calling of inverters electronic transformers then complain that anything electric is called electronic. It does seem daft to call anything electric electronic, but it's also daft to call an inverter an electronic transformer. Every other branch of the electrical trade calls it an inverter, we have them in so many things with large labels saying inverter from the washing machine, to freezer, to welder or 230 volt from 12 volt all these devices are called inverters.

We do not refer to an electronic welding transformer where it uses switch mode control, it's called an inverter. Only the lighting trade call them electronic transformers. So what we have to consider is it the lighting trade who got it wrong or everyone else. Sorry I have reviewed what has been said, and have to now side with Wilson, lighting trade got it wrong.
 
Eric,

I don't think Winston has ever argued that SMPSs are not electronic; he argues that they are not transformers.
It is my contention that they transform (aka convert, change, alter) voltage electronically (and contain a small traditional transformer) therefore they are electronic transformers.
My views are governed solely by the English definition of the words (which cannot be disputed) not the accepted electrical names.


However, a new fly in the ointment has been introduced by Gerry in that anything to do with electrons is electronic.
If this is the case, then even the traditional earliest transformer is an electronic transformer.
 
Eric,

I don't think Winston has ever argued that SMPSs are not electronic; he argues that they are not transformers.
It is my contention that they transform (aka convert, change, alter) voltage electronically (and contain a small traditional transformer) therefore they are electronic transformers.
My views are governed solely by the English definition of the words (which cannot be disputed) not the accepted electrical names.


However, a new fly in the ointment has been introduced by Gerry in that anything to do with electrons is electronic.
If this is the case, then even the traditional earliest transformer is an electronic transformer.
I think we can all see it is the English and how it is used within the electrical trade which is questioned. What Gerry has done is point out that we can't take the literal English definition, but have to use the words as used in the Electrical trade.

Even within the Electrical trade we argue as to what words mean, with Auto Electrics we still have the spigot which we place a lamp on, and inside the lamp we have a wick, bulb or mantel depending if oil, electric or gas, can't remember what was inside a carbide lamp? In the house we still had a spigot on the wall onto which fitted the lamp so in theory we should still call the bit inside the lamp the bulb, it refers to shape being bulbous, but in practice many electrics it seems are also gardeners and think bulbs go in the ground, and for some reason call the bulb a lamp, and the lamp at fitting, not a clue where this came from, but heard it so many times.

Clearly the plumber still calls a gas lamp a lamp and the thing inside a mantel and does not make any jokes about mantels being a bit of fancy clothing.

Everywhere except for lighting the device is called an inverter, be it electronic or mechanical. I had rotary inverters as a boy stolen out of Cambridge radios. They have been called inverters for so many years why change now?
 
The only time i have heard the word "Inverter" used with regards lighting is the units within Emergency lights.
At the end of the day Electronic Transformers do exist and maybe more than 95% of the trade know what there main use was and that was for 12 volt halogen lighting.
 
Eric,

I agree with you but it is not we who make a fuss every time the word appears.
We are merely trying to persuade the one who does the futility of his protests.

As for 'lamp' - I don't know but I would assume it comes from the oil lamp where the whole thing is the lamp, including the bulbous glass bit, and the parts would not work on their own, so distinguishing between the bit which gives off light and the rest of it was not necessary.


Of course, whatever anyone thinks of as an inverter, this is another example of a simple word, which has a general meaning, being poorly chosen as a name for a specific electrical item.
Does the electrical inverter turn anything upside down or the other way round?
Therefore it should be called an "electrical inverter" in the same way as each transformer should be described more specifically.


It should be like "engine". It is not limited to its first incarnation; still common are "steam engine", "internal combustion engine", etc.
 
My uncle had some, some ancient car headlamps and IIRC a work light for ( wait for it ) repair crews repairing gas mains during WWII.

Neat design to control the rate of production of gas. If too much gas was being produced pressure built up and forced the water out of the reaction chamber and back into the water reservoir leaving the carbide dry until more gas was needed. Odd thing was I cannot remember uncle ever lighting that one
 

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